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Although this is written for French developers looking to come to the US, I found it interesting as a window into what things are like in France. Thanks for wr

Although this is written for French developers looking to come to the US, I found it interesting as a window into what things are like in France. Thanks for writing it!

zerr 13y ago
AFAIK salaries are rather low there, but cost of living is quite expensive.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  As far I as know, here in France CS engineers are never hungry, but they don't have nice cars. I'd say middle class. There is a difference in value here, marketing and sales people are paid more than engineers, and they generally rule the show. Startups are often created or ruled by people out of a business school. F.Penso is an exception I think because he's the original French startup guy, tinkerer and hipster (I mean this guy has a soviet era photo camera) since the first wave of startup hype. I'm slightly disappointed he didn't strike it rich because he's been active in the field for quite some time (and he built what was one of the biggest french websites at the time).
  - fabienpenso 13y ago
    > I'm slightly disappointed he didn't strike it rich because he's been active in the field for quite some time I appreciate your comment but I'm not disappointed. If being rich means working 20 hours a day for 5 years will little luck of success in the end (like any startups), I'm not willing to pay the price. I've traveled months per year the recent years, spent a year in Asia, rided 22,000 kilometers in India on Enfield (and about to go again for 4 months) and so more much I can't list here. I feel very lucky of my current position. However I have to say the feeling I had when living in San Francisco is as following. If I had spent as much time and dedication on my projects while living in San Francisco instead of Paris, I would have had 100 times more in return than what I've had in France. On a money level, as well as on a professional level. Might be too late now.
- cxx 13y ago
  That is not only in France, it's in all Europe. Salaries in Germany, The Netherlands, UK and so on are much much lower than in SF or NY. Developer jobs that pay more than 60k euro are few and far between. A 50k+ job is already above average and upgrading is not going to be easy.
  - fabienpenso 13y ago
    The difference is, Europe see developers as commodities. They don't care, they don't need them as much as they do in San Francisco. San Francisco see developers as the only way to achieve their project they just raised 10 millions for. You're gold to them, they accept to pay a higher price. In Europe most young developers want to be Product Manager (or any Manager positions), most developers in SF don't care about this, they want to have fun. The reason could be you get paid super well in SF, and not in Europe :)
    - seivan 13y ago
      Exactly This. MBA's aren't a joke in EU. They are actually taken seriously..
      - cxx 13y ago
        They aren't a joke in the US or the rest of the world either. It's only in certain circles that they're not valued. There's plenty of companies where an MBA from a well-known university is a passport stamp (and prerequisite) to a high paying job.
    - cxx 13y ago
      Absolutely, I completely agree with those things. I don't think devs here want to go into some kind of management position because they're not having fun in a technical job. It's because technical jobs in Europe are a dead end. You can make a living (just pray you don't get fired after your 50s), but anyone with a bit of ambition can see that it's just not worth it in the long run. Why stay as a developer when you can go into a cushy management or presales position that pays easily over 100k?
    - 13y ago
- reeses 13y ago
  And don't buy the 35-hour workweek for a second. As a developer, especially a lead, the hours can be very similar to the USA.

Although this is written for French developers looking to come to the US, I found it interesting as a window into what things are like in France. Thanks for writing it!

zerr 13y ago

AFAIK salaries are rather low there, but cost of living is quite expensive.

nraynaud 13y ago
As far I as know, here in France CS engineers are never hungry, but they don't have nice cars. I'd say middle class. There is a difference in value here, marketing and sales people are paid more than engineers, and they generally rule the show. Startups are often created or ruled by people out of a business school. F.Penso is an exception I think because he's the original French startup guy, tinkerer and hipster (I mean this guy has a soviet era photo camera) since the first wave of startup hype. I'm slightly disappointed he didn't strike it rich because he's been active in the field for quite some time (and he built what was one of the biggest french websites at the time).
- fabienpenso 13y ago
  > I'm slightly disappointed he didn't strike it rich because he's been active in the field for quite some time I appreciate your comment but I'm not disappointed. If being rich means working 20 hours a day for 5 years will little luck of success in the end (like any startups), I'm not willing to pay the price. I've traveled months per year the recent years, spent a year in Asia, rided 22,000 kilometers in India on Enfield (and about to go again for 4 months) and so more much I can't list here. I feel very lucky of my current position. However I have to say the feeling I had when living in San Francisco is as following. If I had spent as much time and dedication on my projects while living in San Francisco instead of Paris, I would have had 100 times more in return than what I've had in France. On a money level, as well as on a professional level. Might be too late now.
cxx 13y ago
That is not only in France, it's in all Europe. Salaries in Germany, The Netherlands, UK and so on are much much lower than in SF or NY. Developer jobs that pay more than 60k euro are few and far between. A 50k+ job is already above average and upgrading is not going to be easy.
- fabienpenso 13y ago
  The difference is, Europe see developers as commodities. They don't care, they don't need them as much as they do in San Francisco. San Francisco see developers as the only way to achieve their project they just raised 10 millions for. You're gold to them, they accept to pay a higher price. In Europe most young developers want to be Product Manager (or any Manager positions), most developers in SF don't care about this, they want to have fun. The reason could be you get paid super well in SF, and not in Europe :)
  - seivan 13y ago
    Exactly This. MBA's aren't a joke in EU. They are actually taken seriously..
    - cxx 13y ago
      They aren't a joke in the US or the rest of the world either. It's only in certain circles that they're not valued. There's plenty of companies where an MBA from a well-known university is a passport stamp (and prerequisite) to a high paying job.
  - cxx 13y ago
    Absolutely, I completely agree with those things. I don't think devs here want to go into some kind of management position because they're not having fun in a technical job. It's because technical jobs in Europe are a dead end. You can make a living (just pray you don't get fired after your 50s), but anyone with a bit of ambition can see that it's just not worth it in the long run. Why stay as a developer when you can go into a cushy management or presales position that pays easily over 100k?
  - 13y ago
reeses 13y ago
And don't buy the 35-hour workweek for a second. As a developer, especially a lead, the hours can be very similar to the USA.