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I believe this is a result from this campaign: http://www.womenactionmedia.org/ http://www.womenactionmedia.org/ I can't get behind this campaign, because a la

I believe this is a result from this campaign: http://www.womenactionmedia.org/ http://www.womenactionmedia.org/ I can't get behind this campaign, because a large part of it appears to be advocating censorship of humour. The face value difference between genuine hate pages and humour is often subtle. But their intentions are completely different. A joke, no matter how crude is not attempting to propagate the idea that rape is acceptable. Because it's intentions are not to encourage the spread of hatred, it appears the reason they should be removed is because people are offended by them. If you find them offensive, don't view them. And I think it's pretty easy not to view those images unless you go looking for them. Here's the campaigns 'examples' page: http://www.womenactionmedia.org/facebookaction/examples/ http://www.womenactionmedia.org/facebookaction/examples/ There is a clear overlap between the jokes, and what I would consider hateful. The majority appear to be bad jokes, and the supporters of the campaign often (understandably) find it difficult to differentiate between the two. I can't support censorship of humour, no matter how offended I am by it. The campaign in my view has failed because it has not clearly defined it's boundaries, it's going to war with genuine hate pages and bad jokes at the same time and is causing a lot of confusion in the process.

RyanZAG 13y ago
I clicked through that examples page you linked, and I disagree with you about what these jokes are. Jokes need to be funny, there is very little humor in "This bitch didn't know when to shut up. Do you?" I agree with you about not censoring jokes, but seriously.. these are not the kind of jokes that are worth the time spent looking at them. Would a picture of your face with blood with the tag line "Tom Gullen didn't know when to shut up." be a joke? I think not.
- thedrbrian 13y ago
  Yes it would. It might not be funny to you but is to someone.
- venomsnake 13y ago
  And if it says - your CEO the day after you won the jackpot? Every employee under crap management will find it funny and the managers offensive ...
- TomGullen 13y ago
  > Jokes need to be funny No they don't, humour is not objective. Regardless of how distasteful a joke is, it's intentions are not to incite violent acts. So the only casualty is how offended you are by them. If they are offensive, simply don't view them which is very easy to do. > Would a picture of your face with blood with the tag line "Tom Gullen didn't know when to shut up." be a joke? I think not. Honestly I might find it funny, it depends on who executed it, how it was executed and how it was presented. It would be hard to execute in such a way where I would find it funny, but it's definitely possible. Either way I don't think your example is very good. Your presenting an example of targeting a named individual, and what's actually going on is most of the 'humour' images are targeting demographics. A better example would be a picture of a bloodied man with the caption "He still hasn't mowed the lawn" or whatever. I would probably chuckle because the image was so bizarre but I don't think it should be censored.
  - clarkm 13y ago
    Whenever I hear people try to argue that certain jokes "aren't funny" and therefore shouldn't be permitted, I get the urge to ask them what they think of postmodern art. I've learned from asking that most people don't hold consistent positions. About 100 years ago when Duchamp put a urinal on display and titled it Fountain, you bet people were screaming "that's not art!" And that was just the beginning. There's anti-art and anti-jokes. There's institutional critiques, inside jokes, and meta-humor. It's not all appropriate, and it's not all good. The rule is: if you don't get it, then it's not for you.
    - TomGullen 13y ago
      Paradoxically I find purposefully unfunny jokes to be some of the funniest
  - juridatenshi 13y ago
    Jokes like this can and do contribute to a culture where violence against women is a very real and regular thing. Regularly joking about how hilarious it is to beat and rape women normalizes it to a degree and encourages those who already think this is acceptable behavior.
skue 13y ago
If you believe those linked examples constitute humor, I'm shocked. Tell me, would you also find these funny? * A photo of Matthew Shepard's body with a joke about gays? * A photo of Jyoti Singh Pandey with a joke about uppity Indian women? * 50 years ago in Southern US, a photo of a burnt body with a joke about blacks? * 75 years ago in Europe, a photo of a rail car with a joke about Jews? Rape is a serious problem today, and men need to own this and stop laughing it off. Just because women are as numerous as men does not mean they are not persecuted. 1 in 6 women will be victimized in her lifetime, and rape can destroy lives. We all need to grow up and stop acting like teenage frat boys. Edit: Reformatted the bulleted list
- TomGullen 13y ago
  > If you believe those linked examples constitute humor, I'm shocked. I believe some of them are jokes. I don't find them humorous. > Tell me, would you also find these funny? Probably not. > Rape is a serious problem today, and men need to own this and stop laughing it off. Where was I "laughing off" rape? What do I need to own up to? Where have I ever said rape is not a serious problem? Looking forward to your reply. You've totally misunderstood what I've been trying to say, and managed to portray me in a totally unjustifiable way.
  - skue 13y ago
    > Where was I "laughing off" rape? I didn't say you were, and that certainly wasn't meant to be personal. What I said was that men (plural) need to stop laughing it off, and by men I was referring to the men who create these images and laugh at them. I also believe men have a collective responsibility to educate each other and stand up to this, much as one could say that non-participating bystanders in the examples I gave earlier had a responsibility to try and stand up against those events.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- fastball 13y ago
  I thought this was clever, just because of how many horrible facebook posts I've seen using this quote. http://www.womenactionmedia.org/cms/assets/uploads/2013/05/hm1H1VcKYQZEmoFIC17lu_qFqbbM02NNxvGJKChWF_8.jpg http://www.womenactionmedia.org/cms/assets/uploads/2013/05/h... And this is so obviously meant to be humourous and not at all misogynistic that it does kinda discredit the rest of the site. http://www.womenactionmedia.org/cms/assets/uploads/2013/05/FRIDAY-amex-2.jpg http://www.womenactionmedia.org/cms/assets/uploads/2013/05/F...
juridatenshi 13y ago
A huge number of the examples are encouraging raping, beating to a bloody pulp, and/or murdering women. The issues with them goes well beyond being offended. However, I'm guessing arguments about rape culture are unlikely to sway you if you think these are jokes and not hateful. As a side note, facebook already censors a bunch of things. For example, they've taken down images of women breastfeeding if nipples are shown. It's kind of fucked up that the sight of nipples in a non-sexual context is worthy of a takedown, but encouraging violence against women is totally ok.
- TomGullen 13y ago
  Well that's where our differences lie. I probably find them equally as distasteful as you, but I don't think a lot of them are encouraging people to actually commit the act of rape and assault.
  - juridatenshi 13y ago
    That's because (hopefully) if you find them distasteful you're not the sort of person who thinks violence against women is awesome. The thing is, there are people out there who do think it is awesome. They tend to have a very different response to these sorts of "jokes" and imagery.
    - skwosh 13y ago
      Good point. You might say that this kind of thing validates a particular way of thinking for people who already lean that way. It's not likely to inspire rape, but it has the potential to reinforce a negative perspective of women.
      - juridatenshi 13y ago
        There have been some studies that indicate these sorts of jokes may increase negative behaviors towards women, such as victim blaming. This is troubling because even if these jokes don't inspire someone to rape or assault someone, they may encourage them to act in a way that enables others to get away with doing so.
skwosh 13y ago
I don't think that whether it's humour or not is relevant. Just as it makes no difference if a derogatory caricature of a jew is a "cartoon" or if The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a "work of literature".

RyanZAG 13y ago

I clicked through that examples page you linked, and I disagree with you about what these jokes are. Jokes need to be funny, there is very little humor in "This bitch didn't know when to shut up. Do you?" I agree with you about not censoring jokes, but seriously.. these are not the kind of jokes that are worth the time spent looking at them. Would a picture of your face with blood with the tag line "Tom Gullen didn't know when to shut up." be a joke? I think not.

thedrbrian 13y ago
Yes it would. It might not be funny to you but is to someone.
venomsnake 13y ago
And if it says - your CEO the day after you won the jackpot? Every employee under crap management will find it funny and the managers offensive ...
TomGullen 13y ago
> Jokes need to be funny No they don't, humour is not objective. Regardless of how distasteful a joke is, it's intentions are not to incite violent acts. So the only casualty is how offended you are by them. If they are offensive, simply don't view them which is very easy to do. > Would a picture of your face with blood with the tag line "Tom Gullen didn't know when to shut up." be a joke? I think not. Honestly I might find it funny, it depends on who executed it, how it was executed and how it was presented. It would be hard to execute in such a way where I would find it funny, but it's definitely possible. Either way I don't think your example is very good. Your presenting an example of targeting a named individual, and what's actually going on is most of the 'humour' images are targeting demographics. A better example would be a picture of a bloodied man with the caption "He still hasn't mowed the lawn" or whatever. I would probably chuckle because the image was so bizarre but I don't think it should be censored.
- clarkm 13y ago
  Whenever I hear people try to argue that certain jokes "aren't funny" and therefore shouldn't be permitted, I get the urge to ask them what they think of postmodern art. I've learned from asking that most people don't hold consistent positions. About 100 years ago when Duchamp put a urinal on display and titled it Fountain, you bet people were screaming "that's not art!" And that was just the beginning. There's anti-art and anti-jokes. There's institutional critiques, inside jokes, and meta-humor. It's not all appropriate, and it's not all good. The rule is: if you don't get it, then it's not for you.
  - TomGullen 13y ago
    Paradoxically I find purposefully unfunny jokes to be some of the funniest
- juridatenshi 13y ago
  Jokes like this can and do contribute to a culture where violence against women is a very real and regular thing. Regularly joking about how hilarious it is to beat and rape women normalizes it to a degree and encourages those who already think this is acceptable behavior.

skue 13y ago

If you believe those linked examples constitute humor, I'm shocked. Tell me, would you also find these funny? * A photo of Matthew Shepard's body with a joke about gays? * A photo of Jyoti Singh Pandey with a joke about uppity Indian women? * 50 years ago in Southern US, a photo of a burnt body with a joke about blacks? * 75 years ago in Europe, a photo of a rail car with a joke about Jews? Rape is a serious problem today, and men need to own this and stop laughing it off. Just because women are as numerous as men does not mean they are not persecuted. 1 in 6 women will be victimized in her lifetime, and rape can destroy lives. We all need to grow up and stop acting like teenage frat boys. Edit: Reformatted the bulleted list

TomGullen 13y ago
> If you believe those linked examples constitute humor, I'm shocked. I believe some of them are jokes. I don't find them humorous. > Tell me, would you also find these funny? Probably not. > Rape is a serious problem today, and men need to own this and stop laughing it off. Where was I "laughing off" rape? What do I need to own up to? Where have I ever said rape is not a serious problem? Looking forward to your reply. You've totally misunderstood what I've been trying to say, and managed to portray me in a totally unjustifiable way.
- skue 13y ago
  > Where was I "laughing off" rape? I didn't say you were, and that certainly wasn't meant to be personal. What I said was that men (plural) need to stop laughing it off, and by men I was referring to the men who create these images and laugh at them. I also believe men have a collective responsibility to educate each other and stand up to this, much as one could say that non-participating bystanders in the examples I gave earlier had a responsibility to try and stand up against those events.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
fastball 13y ago
I thought this was clever, just because of how many horrible facebook posts I've seen using this quote. http://www.womenactionmedia.org/cms/assets/uploads/2013/05/hm1H1VcKYQZEmoFIC17lu_qFqbbM02NNxvGJKChWF_8.jpg http://www.womenactionmedia.org/cms/assets/uploads/2013/05/h... And this is so obviously meant to be humourous and not at all misogynistic that it does kinda discredit the rest of the site. http://www.womenactionmedia.org/cms/assets/uploads/2013/05/FRIDAY-amex-2.jpg http://www.womenactionmedia.org/cms/assets/uploads/2013/05/F...

juridatenshi 13y ago

A huge number of the examples are encouraging raping, beating to a bloody pulp, and/or murdering women. The issues with them goes well beyond being offended. However, I'm guessing arguments about rape culture are unlikely to sway you if you think these are jokes and not hateful. As a side note, facebook already censors a bunch of things. For example, they've taken down images of women breastfeeding if nipples are shown. It's kind of fucked up that the sight of nipples in a non-sexual context is worthy of a takedown, but encouraging violence against women is totally ok.

TomGullen 13y ago
Well that's where our differences lie. I probably find them equally as distasteful as you, but I don't think a lot of them are encouraging people to actually commit the act of rape and assault.
- juridatenshi 13y ago
  That's because (hopefully) if you find them distasteful you're not the sort of person who thinks violence against women is awesome. The thing is, there are people out there who do think it is awesome. They tend to have a very different response to these sorts of "jokes" and imagery.
  - skwosh 13y ago
    Good point. You might say that this kind of thing validates a particular way of thinking for people who already lean that way. It's not likely to inspire rape, but it has the potential to reinforce a negative perspective of women.
    - juridatenshi 13y ago
      There have been some studies that indicate these sorts of jokes may increase negative behaviors towards women, such as victim blaming. This is troubling because even if these jokes don't inspire someone to rape or assault someone, they may encourage them to act in a way that enables others to get away with doing so.

skwosh 13y ago

I don't think that whether it's humour or not is relevant. Just as it makes no difference if a derogatory caricature of a jew is a "cartoon" or if The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a "work of literature".