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When I read an article like this, I try to think of any analogous situations in history and I can't help but think this is similar to a time when, especially in

When I read an article like this, I try to think of any analogous situations in history and I can't help but think this is similar to a time when, especially in the South, labor was essentially free. Wealth and land were largely concentrated in the elite and until the labor was no longer free, concentrations of wealth continued to increase. As with all analogies, it's not perfect. No one is forcing us to give up our information, we're willingly giving it up for free. However, I can see a future where our data is used in ways we had no intention of allowing and the people in charge of the "big computers" will exploit that data.

hga 13y ago
This must be some new definition of the word free I wasn't previous acquainted with. Slaves had a capital cost, and for a healthy young male I've read it wasn't small. They then had to be provided with food and shelter, and armed "management". Not sure if it's relevant or not if they got what went for medical care back then, the Civil War is around when antiseptics were getting experimented upon and later accepted. But again note the capital cost. Which ... Paul Johnson? ... pointed out was unique about the American experience. The 19th century was when slavery and serfdom was technically abolished in much of the world, but the US was the only place where that loss of wealth was not compensated, and the country as a whole suffered from the impoverishment of the South. Then again, a failure to get that right is partly credited with establishing the conditions that lead to the Russian revolution, which was done so badly the Bolsheviks were able to coop that and.... So, substitute "cheap" for "free" labor. One step up from that, but a huge one in principle, was indentured servitude, and today's H-1B visa holders are with some justice often compared to the indentured servants of old. As you note coercion is not implicated today, but I'd note the vast majority of people don't even realize how much information they're "giving up for free".
- smacktoward 13y ago
  Slaves had a capital cost, and for a healthy young male I've read it wasn't small. True, but you also got new ones for free when your existing slaves had children. They then had to be provided with food and shelter ... which was provided at the absolute minimum level required to keep them alive. Clapboard shacks and gruel are not exactly expensive. Not sure if it's relevant or not if they got what went for medical care back then Medical care? For serious? Slaves cared for each other more than their owners cared for them. The 19th century was when slavery and serfdom was technically abolished in much of the world, but the US was the only place where that loss of wealth was not compensated, and the country as a whole suffered from the impoverishment of the South. Blame the slaveholders for that one. Proposals for compensated emancipation were routine in the years leading up to the Civil War. But the slaveholders weren't interested in compromise; they took a hard line against any proposal that involved emancipation, compensated or no. And when it looked like they couldn't hold that line any more, they seceded.
  - hga 13y ago
    Ask any parent if babies are "free". Ugly to discuss this in purely economic terms, but there is an obvious opportunity cost of having a slave woman bear and raise a child to the age where the latter can start working vs. her just working. And your argument that they got "the absolute minimum level required to keep them alive" is in tension with them getting enough to work productively. As I mentioned in a previous discussion, one of the reasons the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union was that they couldn't provide enough food to e.g. the coal miners of the occupied Lowlands: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5733372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5733372
wging 13y ago
Labor wasn't free in the prewar South. There are costs associated with maintaining slaves. To be effective laborers they required feeding, housing, and clothing, and their acquisition wasn't cheap either! This isn't fatal to whatever your point is, because computers also require the equivalents of these things. Yet... >However, I can see a future where our data is used in ways we had no intention of allowing and the people in charge of the "big computers" will exploit that data. So you are claiming that the future will be much like the present?

hga 13y ago

This must be some new definition of the word free I wasn't previous acquainted with. Slaves had a capital cost, and for a healthy young male I've read it wasn't small. They then had to be provided with food and shelter, and armed "management". Not sure if it's relevant or not if they got what went for medical care back then, the Civil War is around when antiseptics were getting experimented upon and later accepted. But again note the capital cost. Which ... Paul Johnson? ... pointed out was unique about the American experience. The 19th century was when slavery and serfdom was technically abolished in much of the world, but the US was the only place where that loss of wealth was not compensated, and the country as a whole suffered from the impoverishment of the South. Then again, a failure to get that right is partly credited with establishing the conditions that lead to the Russian revolution, which was done so badly the Bolsheviks were able to coop that and.... So, substitute "cheap" for "free" labor. One step up from that, but a huge one in principle, was indentured servitude, and today's H-1B visa holders are with some justice often compared to the indentured servants of old. As you note coercion is not implicated today, but I'd note the vast majority of people don't even realize how much information they're "giving up for free".

smacktoward 13y ago
Slaves had a capital cost, and for a healthy young male I've read it wasn't small. True, but you also got new ones for free when your existing slaves had children. They then had to be provided with food and shelter ... which was provided at the absolute minimum level required to keep them alive. Clapboard shacks and gruel are not exactly expensive. Not sure if it's relevant or not if they got what went for medical care back then Medical care? For serious? Slaves cared for each other more than their owners cared for them. The 19th century was when slavery and serfdom was technically abolished in much of the world, but the US was the only place where that loss of wealth was not compensated, and the country as a whole suffered from the impoverishment of the South. Blame the slaveholders for that one. Proposals for compensated emancipation were routine in the years leading up to the Civil War. But the slaveholders weren't interested in compromise; they took a hard line against any proposal that involved emancipation, compensated or no. And when it looked like they couldn't hold that line any more, they seceded.
- hga 13y ago
  Ask any parent if babies are "free". Ugly to discuss this in purely economic terms, but there is an obvious opportunity cost of having a slave woman bear and raise a child to the age where the latter can start working vs. her just working. And your argument that they got "the absolute minimum level required to keep them alive" is in tension with them getting enough to work productively. As I mentioned in a previous discussion, one of the reasons the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union was that they couldn't provide enough food to e.g. the coal miners of the occupied Lowlands: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5733372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5733372

wging 13y ago

Labor wasn't free in the prewar South. There are costs associated with maintaining slaves. To be effective laborers they required feeding, housing, and clothing, and their acquisition wasn't cheap either! This isn't fatal to whatever your point is, because computers also require the equivalents of these things. Yet... >However, I can see a future where our data is used in ways we had no intention of allowing and the people in charge of the "big computers" will exploit that data. So you are claiming that the future will be much like the present?