4 ms·

I notice most of your posts lately have a very negative tone. I don't think the negativity is really justified, given how many opportunities there are for progr

by gizmo 13y ago

I notice most of your posts lately have a very negative tone. I don't think the negativity is really justified, given how many opportunities there are for programmers. Life isn't just good for programmers, it's also getting better every day. We are probably living in the golden age of internet startups, where small 3 man shops can effectively compete with large enterprises. This won't be true forever, but it's true today. If you don't have any money (and let's face it, most of us don't), you can still start a startup. You can work on your project in evenings and nights. Or you save money and quit your job for 8 months or so. Or you can work part time on your startup and do part-time contracting work on the side. Starting a software startup is so much easier than opening a bar or a restaurant or a jeans shop it's not even funny. People put their life savings in ordinary businesses like these every day, and more often than not they get utterly crushed by reality. A restaurant without customers can't afford to keep the doors open for long. Buying a 30k kitchen and hiring 5 people before the first customer has walked through the door is scary. We programmers in contrast can just pivot until we find something people are willing to pay for. We can build half a product and use server analytics to figure out which direction is best. We have unique insights in our users and customers and the press loves to write about anything that involves startups. There are so many things subtly working in our favor! Doing a startup isn't easy. But nobody is entitled to an easy road to guaranteed riches. But doing a startup is possible even if you're broke, don't have any connections and are only a mediocre programmer or business person. Of course the VC money game is rigged to an extent. So what. If you have traction you have leverage and if you have leverage you'll still get a good deal. And if you have paying customers you may not even need VC money. These are, in the big scheme of things, not things to get terribly upset about.

michaelochurch 13y ago
I'm probably older than you (almost 30) and I don't think you're aware of the long-term career risks in this industry. Yes, it's cheaper to go all-in on a startup, and you might build something that makes life (yours and others') a lot better. There are a lot of great things about living in 2013. There certainly are opportunities that didn't exist 20 years ago. However, what happens when your bootstrapped startup fails is an unholy cocktail of the following: a. Your savings is depleted. b. You learn a lot, which overqualifies you for junior-level work. c. People try to take advantage of (a) and offer you low-level positions. Rapid learning (b) and zero credibility advancement (c) is a recipe for disaster, because you'll probably fail when you get shunted into some bullshit low-level job after having been "spoiled" by the experience of getting do real work. It's the career problems that make this game an unholy mess: the fact that most so-called "tech" jobs are career-killing, subordinate wastes of talent that slowly turn you into an unemployable idiot. It's the risk that you'll be 37 and taking orders from a 25-year-old "tech lead" who only knows half a programming language and won't listen to your ideas. Worst of all, at that age you probably have a spouse and kids, so suicide isn't an ethically defensible option. At that point, you just have to suffer for 40 years and die of natural causes.
- gizmo 13y ago
  You're not older than me. And if you believe that a career setback means suicide becomes a rational option... I don't know what to say. There are so many things in life that can go horribly horribly wrong that the risk of career setback is completely acceptable in pursuit of a dream. Every kid who decides to major in ancient languages, philosophy or creative arts takes a way bigger risk and nobody bats an eye.
- Swizec 13y ago
  Wow, bitter much? You don't have to take a low-level job. You don't have to stay at a low-level job. I have noticed people are willing to pay you much more for interesting work than they are for boring work. Just price yourself high enough and the interesting work will start coming.
- count 13y ago
  Or you could grow up and leave the Valley, and realize the world is a lot larger than you seem to appreciate. Or just kill yourself now, and save us all the whining.
  - wglb 13y ago
    Inappropriate.
- jdbernard 13y ago
  You are my age, and I intend this to be friendly. Gizmo is right. You have too much potential left to be so negative. This negative view of employment in our industry is not unique to software. The same concerns about getting stuck in a career-killing, life-draining job are found in most professions. I don't know you personally, so I am hesitant to put words in your mouth or infer what you are feeling. So I'll just talk about myself. What made the difference for me was attitude. It sounds trite but it's true. Some people are too motivated to let themselves be beaten down by a bad job or a bad boss. They continue to struggle through until they change things for the better. I used to be that kind of person, but I gave up hope. I had to find a way to convince myself that I was smart enough, could work hard enough, and could be persistent enough to force positive change in my life. That I would carve a good path through life with my bare hands if I had to. The other alternative was for that negative view of career option to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. I have three children myself, the oldest of which is 4 years old. For their sake I cannot kill myself no matter how bad I feel about my prospects. But also for their sake I cannot let myself get beaten back into a hopeless corner where I come home depressed every day about my life. If I come home every day dead already, what hope do they have of seeing the wonder and beauty of life that makes it worth living? Even without the responsibility of kids I have seen too much good in life to ever be convinced that death is preferable.
intellection 13y ago
Pain is marginalized by people upset with pathos. Repeating reality is (is lost..) that programming has a real life cost equally important to every type of pain. Whether counting greater, technical, systemic, organizational and or proprietary pains, sometimes our lives are counted by asking people to pay with pain. Framed negative and or positive, equally real, paying programming and paying with programming et al, still has real life opportunity cost and real life opportunity lost.
winter_blue 13y ago
> I notice most of your posts lately have a very negative tone. No offense intended to michaelochurch; but a Greasemonkey script or something that auto-hides or flags comments from selected users (that you pick / configure), would come in really handy.[1] It would make a HN much more happier and cheerful place. [1] EDIT: An afterthought: a database where people could share their "flagged users" would be a useful addition. One could then easily figure out who the "most flagged users" were (for negativity, rashness/harshness/pick-your-gripe), and then add an option were you could also hide comments by the "top flagged" users in this database.

by gizmo 13y ago

michaelochurch 13y ago

I'm probably older than you (almost 30) and I don't think you're aware of the long-term career risks in this industry. Yes, it's cheaper to go all-in on a startup, and you might build something that makes life (yours and others') a lot better. There are a lot of great things about living in 2013. There certainly are opportunities that didn't exist 20 years ago. However, what happens when your bootstrapped startup fails is an unholy cocktail of the following: a. Your savings is depleted. b. You learn a lot, which overqualifies you for junior-level work. c. People try to take advantage of (a) and offer you low-level positions. Rapid learning (b) and zero credibility advancement (c) is a recipe for disaster, because you'll probably fail when you get shunted into some bullshit low-level job after having been "spoiled" by the experience of getting do real work. It's the career problems that make this game an unholy mess: the fact that most so-called "tech" jobs are career-killing, subordinate wastes of talent that slowly turn you into an unemployable idiot. It's the risk that you'll be 37 and taking orders from a 25-year-old "tech lead" who only knows half a programming language and won't listen to your ideas. Worst of all, at that age you probably have a spouse and kids, so suicide isn't an ethically defensible option. At that point, you just have to suffer for 40 years and die of natural causes.

gizmo 13y ago
You're not older than me. And if you believe that a career setback means suicide becomes a rational option... I don't know what to say. There are so many things in life that can go horribly horribly wrong that the risk of career setback is completely acceptable in pursuit of a dream. Every kid who decides to major in ancient languages, philosophy or creative arts takes a way bigger risk and nobody bats an eye.
Swizec 13y ago
Wow, bitter much? You don't have to take a low-level job. You don't have to stay at a low-level job. I have noticed people are willing to pay you much more for interesting work than they are for boring work. Just price yourself high enough and the interesting work will start coming.
count 13y ago
Or you could grow up and leave the Valley, and realize the world is a lot larger than you seem to appreciate. Or just kill yourself now, and save us all the whining.
- wglb 13y ago
  Inappropriate.
jdbernard 13y ago
You are my age, and I intend this to be friendly. Gizmo is right. You have too much potential left to be so negative. This negative view of employment in our industry is not unique to software. The same concerns about getting stuck in a career-killing, life-draining job are found in most professions. I don't know you personally, so I am hesitant to put words in your mouth or infer what you are feeling. So I'll just talk about myself. What made the difference for me was attitude. It sounds trite but it's true. Some people are too motivated to let themselves be beaten down by a bad job or a bad boss. They continue to struggle through until they change things for the better. I used to be that kind of person, but I gave up hope. I had to find a way to convince myself that I was smart enough, could work hard enough, and could be persistent enough to force positive change in my life. That I would carve a good path through life with my bare hands if I had to. The other alternative was for that negative view of career option to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. I have three children myself, the oldest of which is 4 years old. For their sake I cannot kill myself no matter how bad I feel about my prospects. But also for their sake I cannot let myself get beaten back into a hopeless corner where I come home depressed every day about my life. If I come home every day dead already, what hope do they have of seeing the wonder and beauty of life that makes it worth living? Even without the responsibility of kids I have seen too much good in life to ever be convinced that death is preferable.

intellection 13y ago

Pain is marginalized by people upset with pathos. Repeating reality is (is lost..) that programming has a real life cost equally important to every type of pain. Whether counting greater, technical, systemic, organizational and or proprietary pains, sometimes our lives are counted by asking people to pay with pain. Framed negative and or positive, equally real, paying programming and paying with programming et al, still has real life opportunity cost and real life opportunity lost.

winter_blue 13y ago

> I notice most of your posts lately have a very negative tone. No offense intended to michaelochurch; but a Greasemonkey script or something that auto-hides or flags comments from selected users (that you pick / configure), would come in really handy.[1] It would make a HN much more happier and cheerful place. [1] EDIT: An afterthought: a database where people could share their "flagged users" would be a useful addition. One could then easily figure out who the "most flagged users" were (for negativity, rashness/harshness/pick-your-gripe), and then add an option were you could also hide comments by the "top flagged" users in this database.