6 ms·

I am not an anti-Microsoft person, but after having used Linux now without even Windows installed for two years straight, it is actually mentally painful to use

I am not an anti-Microsoft person, but after having used Linux now without even Windows installed for two years straight, it is actually mentally painful to use Windows. Yeah, use whatever works best for you -- but using Windows these days feels like I'm on my Big Wheel when I was three years old. In a rubber room.

dschobel 17y ago
I've never met someone who used any version of windows because they thought it was a reasonable way to interface with your computer, always for application compatibility.
- mitko 17y ago
  I do. On my work computer the OS is Ubuntu, and on my home computer it is windows 7. Personally, I like the Windows interface.
  - jherdman 17y ago
    He's not just talking about the GUI though. He's talking about the actual usage of the machine. Personally I find Windows to be a complete pain to use. The console is weak, the way files are laid out on the system irritates me, and their politics as a whole stinks. To each their own, but I concur with the GP.
    - quoderat 17y ago
      Exactly. Powershell is some improvement, but still a pale imitation. Windows feels fragile, and often is when you try to do anything difficult. How to bring an ethernet adapter down then up with a script in Windows? Very difficult, WMI calls and such. In Linux? A line (really, a few characters) of script. Just one of the differences I've run into recently.
      - jodrellblank 17y ago
        Oh come on, WMI calls? you're just spreading FUD. Bring a network interface down: netsh interface set interface name="Local Area Connection" admin=disabled
        smanek 17y ago
        "sudo ifdown eth0"
        quoderat 17y ago
        Problem is, it doesn't work right: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/262265 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/262265
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
        jodrellblank 17y ago
        And if I picked a Linux distro from 8 years ago I'd find some bugs in it too. Use the current version of Windows, it has fewer bugs.
        quoderat 17y ago
        Sorry, I have to use what the company provides, not what I wish the company provided. That's the real world.
        jodrellblank 17y ago
        By that logic, if your company provided Windows 3.1 you would go around saying Windows has no multiuser support. Windows has an interface for doing what you asked. It had a bug / didn't work as described so they fixed it. Your company wont buy the fix, but that doesn't mean the fix doesn't exist. It means you can't take advantage of it, sure. But saying Windows doesn't support it is deliberately misrepresenting Windows to make it look bad. It's spreading FUD, and it's wrong. Plus, why did you bring WMI into this? You can't seem to do it with WMI: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa394595(VS.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa394595(VS.85).aspx "If you are not using DHCP, you cannot use WMI to disable a network connection". Were you just bringing WMI into it because it sounds scary and complicated and so would help shore up your FUD, or is there a way and this MSDN article is wrong? (But you can do it by scripting the shell: http://mcpmag.com/columns/article.asp?EditorialsID=619 http://mcpmag.com/columns/article.asp?EditorialsID=619 or by using Devcon to disable a hardware device from the command line: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/311272/en-us http://support.microsoft.com/kb/311272/en-us )
    - mitko 17y ago
      Yes, I agree that the console is not the main thing that one gets Windows or Mac. My rule of thumb is: less command line use-> better. Ubuntu is pretty nice and I like their efforts to provide good human interface. On the other hand there whole bunch of software that runs only on Unix machines and not on Windows. I am irritated every time I need to ssh to a linux machine just to do something simple for a class or project, but I stick to Windows for my personal needs, because I find its interface best for me.
    - actf 17y ago
      This was true back in the days of cmd.exe, but with powershell the state of the windows command line is a different story. Powershell is a huge step forward for Microsoft. I've been using it for about a year now and so far I'm very impressed. I'd even go so far as to say I prefer it to bash for certain tasks. The concept of passing objects around is, while strange at first, surprisingly intuitive and powerful. If you're currently using a combination of windows + cygwin (as I was) I'd strongly suggest picking up a copy of "Powershell in Action" and giving powershell a shot for a couple of weeks. I'd be surprised if you don't switch to powershell. I'll concede that overall powershell still has some significant obstacles to overcome before it's better than the linux command line, but just like when windows xp came out and people stopped making legitimate complaints about window's stability - with powershell released now, I think we'll start to see the same trend with people complaining about the windows command line - these complaints will no longer be legitimate.
- Jem 17y ago
  I've been using it for about 10 years. Application compatibility is only a small part of why I stick with it. (I have tried multiple Linux distributions and OS X)
  - mattyb 17y ago
    What are your other reasons?
    - Jem 17y ago
      Many and varied, but most importantly because I actually like Windows.
      - jherdman 17y ago
        Until today, I thought people like you were the unicorns of the geek world.
        whacked_new 17y ago
        I use W/M/L on a daily basis. User of all, fanboy of none. No platform strikes a perfect balance for me. Windows accelerators are pretty good; far and beyond OS X, in my non-expert experience with the Mac. I can't say much for Linux because it's pretty much all terminal :-) Oh, the Mac mouse acceleration annoys me to no end. More edits. Actually I can't say that about Linux. It's terminal because it complements my useless cmd.exe in a VM. The Linux accelerators are about the same I guess.
        Jem 17y ago
        That's probably one of the nicest things I've been called after admitting to liking Windows ;)
- sho 17y ago
  I wouldn't even say that. In most cases I'd say it's all about familiarity - both OS and application. Perhaps a project manager needs MS Project, or an architect needs AutoCad or something but for the "teenage girl" demographic you would be hard pressed to find any particular application they absolutely needed that doesn't exist on Linux, or there isn't a ready counterpart (eg Adium instead of MSN Messenger). They're just not used to it and dislike anything unfamiliar, since computers are basically mystic black boxes anyway. I think for many typical users it's simply a matter of preferring something they (mostly) know how to use.
  - netsp 17y ago
    It's important to use would instead of could when thinking about these things. If the teenage girl doesn't know about Adium, it's the same no Adium. It's now more likely that she would Google "MSN for linux" and be successful. That's relatively new. It still leaves her less likely to having the messenger. That likelihood is not 0. Not even on windows. There are plenty of 14 year old girls out there that don't have MSN Messenger on Windows even though they 'couldn't' overcome some sort of hurdle. http://www.google.com/search?q=msn+for+linux&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a http://www.google.com/search?q=msn+for+linux&ie=utf-8&#3...
- halo 17y ago
  I do. I like Windows a lot. I'm completely platform agnostic and I've used all 3 major platforms at various times but I always come back to Windows. I think there's a quiet majority of people out there who are perfectly happy with Windows but they don't tend to talk about it, whereas you do tend to get a lot of outspoken Mac and Linux users who are willing to both champion their platform as well as bash Windows at any given opportunity.
  - mseebach 17y ago
    > I think there's a quiet majority of people out there who are perfectly happy with Windows I think there's a quiet majority out there who's never tried anything but Windows, and think of their computer as nothing more than a tool, completely oblivious to such abstractions as operating systems.
    - access_denied 17y ago
      I think there's a big majority of computer users, quietly suffering under Windows and simply having no idea that there even exists an alternative.
      - derwiki 17y ago
        I installed Ubuntu on a laptop I gave to my father a few weeks ago, and he's been using it exclusively. I don't think he can tell the difference between Ubuntu and Windows.
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
        dinkumthinkum 17y ago
        You know, I'm not one of those weirdos that think desktop applications are going away. But I'd say most people who keep up with software development believe that's the case. <rant>I think that would be pretty bad if the best we'll ever be able to do is Javascript.</rant> Anyway, IF most apps people are using are Web based and compatible with Firefox or a Flash version supported in Ubuntu ... it seems less and less like there would be much point in paying for, using, and dealing with Windows. I think most seniors can just about already switch fine to Ubuntu.
- whacked_new 17y ago
  For hybrid tablet users, Windows is the only way to go, and in that respect, I think the MS team did a pretty damn good job with the bundled functions in Vista. And those who haven't used tablets before don't know what you're missing out on :-)
  - krschultz 17y ago
    Why do you say that? We're all using Lenovo X61's with Ubuntu and its full featured.
    - whacked_new 17y ago
      I just finished Jaunty; the out-of-the-box support was remarkable, but it still falls short of Vista. Vista is really a "tablet-aware" OS; when you pick up the pen, all the penabled functions come alive. When you hold down the secondary button, an indicator appears. And you have the screen rotation buttons, on screen keyboard, excellent handwriting recognition, and the journal app, which, despite it's lame (non-svg) format, does a decent job. Jaunty was awesome up until the point of dual head. My video card is partly to blame, because on xorg I can't set two screens of different resolution, so my second monitor looks terrible, not to mention the logout required. In terms of tablet functions, you have to readjust the coordinates after you add the second monitor. On Vista, everything works with close to no intervention, and plugging in another monitor, everything still works as you expect. That's not to say Jaunty wasn't hella impressive; it was. But I'm talking about built-in features, and in this respect Vista is still ahead. Anyhow, back to ubuntu on the VM.
utx00 17y ago
these help: http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13708 http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13708 http://www.blackviper.com/WinVista/servicecfg.htm http://www.blackviper.com/WinVista/servicecfg.htm
chancho 17y ago
Can someone with knowledge of the underlying OS mechanisms answer this for me: What is the deal with file access on Windows? In Linux (on the Mac too, I think) I can move, copy and delete files freely, regardless of what applications currently have that file open. On Windows, I always run into some situation where it won't let me do what I want to do because the file is open. So I have to hunt through 10-20 windows to see who has it (9 times out of 10 its a command prompt or explorer window holding on to a directory that I'm trying to delete.) I don't use windows often so maybe I'm exaggerating, but this is the single most infuriating windows usability nitpick I have. Have they fixed this in Vista or 7?
- Jem 17y ago
  I don't know whether or not it's fixed in more recent versions, but there are programs which get around this for you (by killing processes, or telling you which process is using the file/folder). E.g. Unlocker http://ccollomb.free.fr/unlocker/ http://ccollomb.free.fr/unlocker/
- trezor 17y ago
  Can someone with knowledge of the underlying OS mechanisms answer this for me: What is the deal with file access on Windows? The Windows locking defaults when opening file-handles actually includes locking and has done so for such a long time that applications have come to depend on it. If you check the Win32 API you will see applications have several options for requesting (or not requesting) file-locks when doing file-operations, but not using them, the defaults are to play it safe and ensure that no data is lost due to improper access. Technologically speaking, this is kinda the same as you have in Linux, except that the defaults are the polar opposite. Changing the defaults now would break havoc among multiple applications relying on the defaults and cause massive amounts of corrupted data. So Microsoft have kept them as is. IOW: If you are having issues with file-locking, you need to blame the application-developer for not properly signalling what level and type of locking is actually required, because Windows will respect the locks set on file-handles. Maybe I'm the exception, but I consider that a good thing.
- halo 17y ago
  It's fixed in Windows 7 by telling you which application is using the file (http://lifehacker.com/5132227/windows-7-tells-you-why-you-cant-touch-that-file http://lifehacker.com/5132227/windows-7-tells-you-why-you-ca...).
LogicHoleFlaw 17y ago
My preferred way to explain my stance on operating systems is thus: "I don't hate Microsoft. I love Linux."
sharjeel 17y ago
Apart from my server machines, I'm primarily a Windows user because I've always felt that Windows (esp. XP) saves you lot of time in configuring stuff as compared to *nix (not considering mac). Of course it restricts you a lot but with tools like GnuWin32 etc. you can create quite a powerful dev box. Once I decided to install Ubuntu 8.04 in one of my machines but X didn't work due to some conflict with the graphics card. After lot of forum browsing and hair pulling, I finally went to #ubuntu on irc.freenode.net to beg for some help. I explained them the problem I was having and casually told them "I'm using Windows right now". The reply was "You mean, struggling with Windows?". Yeah right!

dschobel 17y ago

I've never met someone who used any version of windows because they thought it was a reasonable way to interface with your computer, always for application compatibility.

mitko 17y ago
I do. On my work computer the OS is Ubuntu, and on my home computer it is windows 7. Personally, I like the Windows interface.
- jherdman 17y ago
  He's not just talking about the GUI though. He's talking about the actual usage of the machine. Personally I find Windows to be a complete pain to use. The console is weak, the way files are laid out on the system irritates me, and their politics as a whole stinks. To each their own, but I concur with the GP.
  - quoderat 17y ago
    Exactly. Powershell is some improvement, but still a pale imitation. Windows feels fragile, and often is when you try to do anything difficult. How to bring an ethernet adapter down then up with a script in Windows? Very difficult, WMI calls and such. In Linux? A line (really, a few characters) of script. Just one of the differences I've run into recently.
    - jodrellblank 17y ago
      Oh come on, WMI calls? you're just spreading FUD. Bring a network interface down: netsh interface set interface name="Local Area Connection" admin=disabled
      - smanek 17y ago
        "sudo ifdown eth0"
      - quoderat 17y ago
        Problem is, it doesn't work right: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/262265 http://support.microsoft.com/kb/262265
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
        jodrellblank 17y ago
        And if I picked a Linux distro from 8 years ago I'd find some bugs in it too. Use the current version of Windows, it has fewer bugs.
        quoderat 17y ago
        Sorry, I have to use what the company provides, not what I wish the company provided. That's the real world.
        jodrellblank 17y ago
        By that logic, if your company provided Windows 3.1 you would go around saying Windows has no multiuser support. Windows has an interface for doing what you asked. It had a bug / didn't work as described so they fixed it. Your company wont buy the fix, but that doesn't mean the fix doesn't exist. It means you can't take advantage of it, sure. But saying Windows doesn't support it is deliberately misrepresenting Windows to make it look bad. It's spreading FUD, and it's wrong. Plus, why did you bring WMI into this? You can't seem to do it with WMI: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa394595(VS.85).aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa394595(VS.85).aspx "If you are not using DHCP, you cannot use WMI to disable a network connection". Were you just bringing WMI into it because it sounds scary and complicated and so would help shore up your FUD, or is there a way and this MSDN article is wrong? (But you can do it by scripting the shell: http://mcpmag.com/columns/article.asp?EditorialsID=619 http://mcpmag.com/columns/article.asp?EditorialsID=619 or by using Devcon to disable a hardware device from the command line: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/311272/en-us http://support.microsoft.com/kb/311272/en-us )
  - mitko 17y ago
    Yes, I agree that the console is not the main thing that one gets Windows or Mac. My rule of thumb is: less command line use-> better. Ubuntu is pretty nice and I like their efforts to provide good human interface. On the other hand there whole bunch of software that runs only on Unix machines and not on Windows. I am irritated every time I need to ssh to a linux machine just to do something simple for a class or project, but I stick to Windows for my personal needs, because I find its interface best for me.
  - actf 17y ago
    This was true back in the days of cmd.exe, but with powershell the state of the windows command line is a different story. Powershell is a huge step forward for Microsoft. I've been using it for about a year now and so far I'm very impressed. I'd even go so far as to say I prefer it to bash for certain tasks. The concept of passing objects around is, while strange at first, surprisingly intuitive and powerful. If you're currently using a combination of windows + cygwin (as I was) I'd strongly suggest picking up a copy of "Powershell in Action" and giving powershell a shot for a couple of weeks. I'd be surprised if you don't switch to powershell. I'll concede that overall powershell still has some significant obstacles to overcome before it's better than the linux command line, but just like when windows xp came out and people stopped making legitimate complaints about window's stability - with powershell released now, I think we'll start to see the same trend with people complaining about the windows command line - these complaints will no longer be legitimate.
Jem 17y ago
I've been using it for about 10 years. Application compatibility is only a small part of why I stick with it. (I have tried multiple Linux distributions and OS X)
- mattyb 17y ago
  What are your other reasons?
  - Jem 17y ago
    Many and varied, but most importantly because I actually like Windows.
    - jherdman 17y ago
      Until today, I thought people like you were the unicorns of the geek world.
      - whacked_new 17y ago
        I use W/M/L on a daily basis. User of all, fanboy of none. No platform strikes a perfect balance for me. Windows accelerators are pretty good; far and beyond OS X, in my non-expert experience with the Mac. I can't say much for Linux because it's pretty much all terminal :-) Oh, the Mac mouse acceleration annoys me to no end. More edits. Actually I can't say that about Linux. It's terminal because it complements my useless cmd.exe in a VM. The Linux accelerators are about the same I guess.
      - Jem 17y ago
        That's probably one of the nicest things I've been called after admitting to liking Windows ;)
sho 17y ago
I wouldn't even say that. In most cases I'd say it's all about familiarity - both OS and application. Perhaps a project manager needs MS Project, or an architect needs AutoCad or something but for the "teenage girl" demographic you would be hard pressed to find any particular application they absolutely needed that doesn't exist on Linux, or there isn't a ready counterpart (eg Adium instead of MSN Messenger). They're just not used to it and dislike anything unfamiliar, since computers are basically mystic black boxes anyway. I think for many typical users it's simply a matter of preferring something they (mostly) know how to use.
- netsp 17y ago
  It's important to use would instead of could when thinking about these things. If the teenage girl doesn't know about Adium, it's the same no Adium. It's now more likely that she would Google "MSN for linux" and be successful. That's relatively new. It still leaves her less likely to having the messenger. That likelihood is not 0. Not even on windows. There are plenty of 14 year old girls out there that don't have MSN Messenger on Windows even though they 'couldn't' overcome some sort of hurdle. http://www.google.com/search?q=msn+for+linux&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a http://www.google.com/search?q=msn+for+linux&ie=utf-8&#3...
halo 17y ago
I do. I like Windows a lot. I'm completely platform agnostic and I've used all 3 major platforms at various times but I always come back to Windows. I think there's a quiet majority of people out there who are perfectly happy with Windows but they don't tend to talk about it, whereas you do tend to get a lot of outspoken Mac and Linux users who are willing to both champion their platform as well as bash Windows at any given opportunity.
- mseebach 17y ago
  > I think there's a quiet majority of people out there who are perfectly happy with Windows I think there's a quiet majority out there who's never tried anything but Windows, and think of their computer as nothing more than a tool, completely oblivious to such abstractions as operating systems.
  - access_denied 17y ago
    I think there's a big majority of computer users, quietly suffering under Windows and simply having no idea that there even exists an alternative.
    - derwiki 17y ago
      I installed Ubuntu on a laptop I gave to my father a few weeks ago, and he's been using it exclusively. I don't think he can tell the difference between Ubuntu and Windows.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
      - dinkumthinkum 17y ago
        You know, I'm not one of those weirdos that think desktop applications are going away. But I'd say most people who keep up with software development believe that's the case. <rant>I think that would be pretty bad if the best we'll ever be able to do is Javascript.</rant> Anyway, IF most apps people are using are Web based and compatible with Firefox or a Flash version supported in Ubuntu ... it seems less and less like there would be much point in paying for, using, and dealing with Windows. I think most seniors can just about already switch fine to Ubuntu.
whacked_new 17y ago
For hybrid tablet users, Windows is the only way to go, and in that respect, I think the MS team did a pretty damn good job with the bundled functions in Vista. And those who haven't used tablets before don't know what you're missing out on :-)
- krschultz 17y ago
  Why do you say that? We're all using Lenovo X61's with Ubuntu and its full featured.
  - whacked_new 17y ago
    I just finished Jaunty; the out-of-the-box support was remarkable, but it still falls short of Vista. Vista is really a "tablet-aware" OS; when you pick up the pen, all the penabled functions come alive. When you hold down the secondary button, an indicator appears. And you have the screen rotation buttons, on screen keyboard, excellent handwriting recognition, and the journal app, which, despite it's lame (non-svg) format, does a decent job. Jaunty was awesome up until the point of dual head. My video card is partly to blame, because on xorg I can't set two screens of different resolution, so my second monitor looks terrible, not to mention the logout required. In terms of tablet functions, you have to readjust the coordinates after you add the second monitor. On Vista, everything works with close to no intervention, and plugging in another monitor, everything still works as you expect. That's not to say Jaunty wasn't hella impressive; it was. But I'm talking about built-in features, and in this respect Vista is still ahead. Anyhow, back to ubuntu on the VM.

utx00 17y ago

these help: http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13708 http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13708 http://www.blackviper.com/WinVista/servicecfg.htm http://www.blackviper.com/WinVista/servicecfg.htm

chancho 17y ago

Can someone with knowledge of the underlying OS mechanisms answer this for me: What is the deal with file access on Windows? In Linux (on the Mac too, I think) I can move, copy and delete files freely, regardless of what applications currently have that file open. On Windows, I always run into some situation where it won't let me do what I want to do because the file is open. So I have to hunt through 10-20 windows to see who has it (9 times out of 10 its a command prompt or explorer window holding on to a directory that I'm trying to delete.) I don't use windows often so maybe I'm exaggerating, but this is the single most infuriating windows usability nitpick I have. Have they fixed this in Vista or 7?

Jem 17y ago
I don't know whether or not it's fixed in more recent versions, but there are programs which get around this for you (by killing processes, or telling you which process is using the file/folder). E.g. Unlocker http://ccollomb.free.fr/unlocker/ http://ccollomb.free.fr/unlocker/
trezor 17y ago
Can someone with knowledge of the underlying OS mechanisms answer this for me: What is the deal with file access on Windows? The Windows locking defaults when opening file-handles actually includes locking and has done so for such a long time that applications have come to depend on it. If you check the Win32 API you will see applications have several options for requesting (or not requesting) file-locks when doing file-operations, but not using them, the defaults are to play it safe and ensure that no data is lost due to improper access. Technologically speaking, this is kinda the same as you have in Linux, except that the defaults are the polar opposite. Changing the defaults now would break havoc among multiple applications relying on the defaults and cause massive amounts of corrupted data. So Microsoft have kept them as is. IOW: If you are having issues with file-locking, you need to blame the application-developer for not properly signalling what level and type of locking is actually required, because Windows will respect the locks set on file-handles. Maybe I'm the exception, but I consider that a good thing.
halo 17y ago
It's fixed in Windows 7 by telling you which application is using the file (http://lifehacker.com/5132227/windows-7-tells-you-why-you-cant-touch-that-file http://lifehacker.com/5132227/windows-7-tells-you-why-you-ca...).

LogicHoleFlaw 17y ago

My preferred way to explain my stance on operating systems is thus: "I don't hate Microsoft. I love Linux."

sharjeel 17y ago

Apart from my server machines, I'm primarily a Windows user because I've always felt that Windows (esp. XP) saves you lot of time in configuring stuff as compared to *nix (not considering mac). Of course it restricts you a lot but with tools like GnuWin32 etc. you can create quite a powerful dev box. Once I decided to install Ubuntu 8.04 in one of my machines but X didn't work due to some conflict with the graphics card. After lot of forum browsing and hair pulling, I finally went to #ubuntu on irc.freenode.net to beg for some help. I explained them the problem I was having and casually told them "I'm using Windows right now". The reply was "You mean, struggling with Windows?". Yeah right!