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It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad

It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad stimulus target during the presidential debates actually paying back all their loans ahead of time? If there was one place I hoped I could go to celebrate an innovative company's success, it would be HN. I take particular issue with, "Make no mistake, this is as much a PR ploy by Tesla to pump up their offering." Paying back $450mm in loans isn't just a "ploy" - it's actually raising the money and sending it back to the taxpayers. And, at the same time, doing something innovative and forward looking - building electric cars - which, (look at Fisker) - is NOT a slam dunk, even with green credits. I, for one, am applauding Tesla today. We can do that without saying that they will be successful in everything, and in the future. But today they are.

BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
> It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Posts that provide insightful explanation about the story? Yes, less of that and more unqualified positive gushing, please. There is nothing wrong with offering an informed opinion, even if (especially if) it's not in full alignment with the prevailing attitude of the hivemind.
- ryguytilidie 13y ago
  Man, I'm really not sure that you could have missed his point any more. How could you read what he wrote and POSSIBLY think he was arguing that we need "more unqualified gushing"? You pretty much just made up a strawman and beat the bejesus out of it for no reason... I'll be the first to call out unqualified gushing, but if that's what we're calling a factual account of a company paying back a loan I simply have to disagree with you.
  - BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
    > It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. > Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad stimulus target during the presidential debates actually paying back all their loans ahead of time? If there was one place I hoped I could go to celebrate an innovative company's success, it would be HN. It's right there in black in white: "I don't like that we have posts that aren't strictly celebratory in nature" (at least about Tesla). For the record, I'm most definitely a fan of Tesla and have utmost respect for the company, but that didn't stop me from appreciating the critical view of this story that was offered by noname123 (in which I learned some things I didn't know about).
    - dasil003 13y ago
      Wait a minute did you just make up a quote out of thin air and misattribute it to someone else saying "it's right there in black [and] white"?
      - iancarroll 13y ago
        I don't see the quote anywhere, either.
      - Ntrails 13y ago
        No, he is responding to the initial branch. The quote is there in black and white
      - BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
        The quote was at the start of my comment, after which I offered a way of reiterating it.
- rossjudson 13y ago
  This particular "informed opinion" contained nothing other than a repetition of the facts already present in the press release, packaged together with a little disdain-flavored "commentary".
baddox 13y ago
If celebrating the actions of trendy companies and founders is what you're after, the vast majority of Hacker News should be very satisfying to you. Comments like the one you replied to are much rarer.
- ghshephard 13y ago
  It's not the case that we have to blindly praise a company - but calling something as significant as raising $450mm in the public markets to pay back the government loans a "PR Ploy" saddens me, because that was a very real, and impressive accomplishment. Musk/Tesla aren't without their issues, and, as John Siracusa showed us on "Hypercritical" - you can simultaneously appreciate something but still point out all of its flaws in glorious detail -but it's the frequent reflex to use the pejorative when describing intent or action, even on a good day like this, that brings down the tone of conversation.
  - sammathews 13y ago
    Ultimately Tesla is in the business of public opinion. Paying back the goverment far ahead of schedule when there is no need to necessarily do it, considering fairly favourable terms for the loan, can be considered a "PR Ploy" to play to that public opinion. After all, wouldn't they have just stated the fact and not compared themselves to other car manufacturers, even going to lengths to spell out the fact that they weren't bailed out? It is not a bad thing, after all it is a smart move and one done so by good businessmen. But blindly assuming they are doing this from the good of their hearts "because we want to do the right thing and pay back our government" is just naive. I don't think you should consider the above as a negative comment either, there are those among us who value the business rational behind the decision, and don't get caught up in the PR fluff. I think everyone here respects and admires what Elon Musk is doing, and doing well.
    - cma 13y ago
      Didn't the loan place a lot of restrictions on them? You have to trade off the low interest rate against that, especially when the rate they are getting with the bonds isn't that much worse.
tptacek 13y ago
I didn't read this comment nearly as negatively as you seemed to have.
- ghshephard 13y ago
  It was a gut reaction to the "PR ploy to Pump" phrasing - which made TSLA sound like some kind of boiler-room operation engaging in shady behavior. Also, it would have been nice to come to HN and see the top rated article on TSLA calling out all the positives, rather than focussing no the Debt, Dilution, Loss that TSLA is experiencing. It's important to take time to celebrate victories, ours, and the people/organizations we look up to.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Facts about debt, dilution, and loss are extremely interesting and relevant to the story. Moreover, it seems like the worst thing he had to say about TSLA is that they're very good at marketing. Which is pretty important for a car company. The HN problem is with middlebrow dismissals at the top of threads. I'd submit that the comment at the top of this one is neither "middlebrow" nor dismissive.
  - mempko 13y ago
    Tesla takes money out of people's pockets (the tax payers)and gives rich people fancy cars to drive. Not sure how to celebrate that... They payed back their loan to the tax payers by taking out a loan from someone else, not by selling a car at a profit and making a successful product.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      Thank you for providing an actual middlebrow dismissal for comparative purposes.
    - vpeters25 13y ago
      I think they took a loan guarantee from DOE because nobody else was lending money back then and they needed funding to develop the Model S.
a1a 13y ago
>> It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. I disagree. This is actually the kind of posts that makes me want to check into HN. The poster knows what he talks about and he shares his view on the matter. For comparison, read the Reddit comments about the same link: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1evskd/tesla_repays_department_of_energy_loan_nine_years/ http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1evskd/tesla_rep... .. and next time, please skip the fallacy of attacking something irrelevant, i.e. what kinds of posts you like and what you think fits on HN, instead of the argument itself. Notice: I'm only annoyed by the first two lines of your post, the rest I think is a valid argument.
joshdance 13y ago
I agree. Let's applaude the lone electric car success.
- pressurefree 13y ago
  i dont think you understand... sim1a.com
dreamdu5t 13y ago
I can't get a clear picture on how much Tesla's success is a result of government subsidies, loans, and windfalls. For example, at one point Musk said 10% of their revenue was from selling carbon credits they get for each car they sell to other car companies. What's difficult for me is there's no place where you can get a decent summary of the kind of government programs Tesla relies on or takes advantage of.
ritchiea 13y ago
I love that these types of comments are at the top of Hacker News. They add valuable information to the discussion. I don't understand how you expressing your admiration for Tesla is at odds with the interesting factual background of the comment you responded to.

BHSPitMonkey 13y ago

> It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. Posts that provide insightful explanation about the story? Yes, less of that and more unqualified positive gushing, please. There is nothing wrong with offering an informed opinion, even if (especially if) it's not in full alignment with the prevailing attitude of the hivemind.

ryguytilidie 13y ago
Man, I'm really not sure that you could have missed his point any more. How could you read what he wrote and POSSIBLY think he was arguing that we need "more unqualified gushing"? You pretty much just made up a strawman and beat the bejesus out of it for no reason... I'll be the first to call out unqualified gushing, but if that's what we're calling a factual account of a company paying back a loan I simply have to disagree with you.
- BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
  > It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. > Can't we celebrate a company, that was called out as a bad stimulus target during the presidential debates actually paying back all their loans ahead of time? If there was one place I hoped I could go to celebrate an innovative company's success, it would be HN. It's right there in black in white: "I don't like that we have posts that aren't strictly celebratory in nature" (at least about Tesla). For the record, I'm most definitely a fan of Tesla and have utmost respect for the company, but that didn't stop me from appreciating the critical view of this story that was offered by noname123 (in which I learned some things I didn't know about).
  - dasil003 13y ago
    Wait a minute did you just make up a quote out of thin air and misattribute it to someone else saying "it's right there in black [and] white"?
    - iancarroll 13y ago
      I don't see the quote anywhere, either.
    - Ntrails 13y ago
      No, he is responding to the initial branch. The quote is there in black and white
    - BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
      The quote was at the start of my comment, after which I offered a way of reiterating it.
rossjudson 13y ago
This particular "informed opinion" contained nothing other than a repetition of the facts already present in the press release, packaged together with a little disdain-flavored "commentary".

baddox 13y ago

If celebrating the actions of trendy companies and founders is what you're after, the vast majority of Hacker News should be very satisfying to you. Comments like the one you replied to are much rarer.

ghshephard 13y ago
It's not the case that we have to blindly praise a company - but calling something as significant as raising $450mm in the public markets to pay back the government loans a "PR Ploy" saddens me, because that was a very real, and impressive accomplishment. Musk/Tesla aren't without their issues, and, as John Siracusa showed us on "Hypercritical" - you can simultaneously appreciate something but still point out all of its flaws in glorious detail -but it's the frequent reflex to use the pejorative when describing intent or action, even on a good day like this, that brings down the tone of conversation.
- sammathews 13y ago
  Ultimately Tesla is in the business of public opinion. Paying back the goverment far ahead of schedule when there is no need to necessarily do it, considering fairly favourable terms for the loan, can be considered a "PR Ploy" to play to that public opinion. After all, wouldn't they have just stated the fact and not compared themselves to other car manufacturers, even going to lengths to spell out the fact that they weren't bailed out? It is not a bad thing, after all it is a smart move and one done so by good businessmen. But blindly assuming they are doing this from the good of their hearts "because we want to do the right thing and pay back our government" is just naive. I don't think you should consider the above as a negative comment either, there are those among us who value the business rational behind the decision, and don't get caught up in the PR fluff. I think everyone here respects and admires what Elon Musk is doing, and doing well.
  - cma 13y ago
    Didn't the loan place a lot of restrictions on them? You have to trade off the low interest rate against that, especially when the rate they are getting with the bonds isn't that much worse.

tptacek 13y ago

I didn't read this comment nearly as negatively as you seemed to have.

ghshephard 13y ago
It was a gut reaction to the "PR ploy to Pump" phrasing - which made TSLA sound like some kind of boiler-room operation engaging in shady behavior. Also, it would have been nice to come to HN and see the top rated article on TSLA calling out all the positives, rather than focussing no the Debt, Dilution, Loss that TSLA is experiencing. It's important to take time to celebrate victories, ours, and the people/organizations we look up to.
- tptacek 13y ago
  Facts about debt, dilution, and loss are extremely interesting and relevant to the story. Moreover, it seems like the worst thing he had to say about TSLA is that they're very good at marketing. Which is pretty important for a car company. The HN problem is with middlebrow dismissals at the top of threads. I'd submit that the comment at the top of this one is neither "middlebrow" nor dismissive.
- mempko 13y ago
  Tesla takes money out of people's pockets (the tax payers)and gives rich people fancy cars to drive. Not sure how to celebrate that... They payed back their loan to the tax payers by taking out a loan from someone else, not by selling a car at a profit and making a successful product.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Thank you for providing an actual middlebrow dismissal for comparative purposes.
  - vpeters25 13y ago
    I think they took a loan guarantee from DOE because nobody else was lending money back then and they needed funding to develop the Model S.

a1a 13y ago

>> It's these type of posts that make it to the top of a thread that make me not want to check into HN. I disagree. This is actually the kind of posts that makes me want to check into HN. The poster knows what he talks about and he shares his view on the matter. For comparison, read the Reddit comments about the same link: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1evskd/tesla_repays_department_of_energy_loan_nine_years/ http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1evskd/tesla_rep... .. and next time, please skip the fallacy of attacking something irrelevant, i.e. what kinds of posts you like and what you think fits on HN, instead of the argument itself. Notice: I'm only annoyed by the first two lines of your post, the rest I think is a valid argument.

joshdance 13y ago

I agree. Let's applaude the lone electric car success.

pressurefree 13y ago
i dont think you understand... sim1a.com

dreamdu5t 13y ago

I can't get a clear picture on how much Tesla's success is a result of government subsidies, loans, and windfalls. For example, at one point Musk said 10% of their revenue was from selling carbon credits they get for each car they sell to other car companies. What's difficult for me is there's no place where you can get a decent summary of the kind of government programs Tesla relies on or takes advantage of.

ritchiea 13y ago

I love that these types of comments are at the top of Hacker News. They add valuable information to the discussion. I don't understand how you expressing your admiration for Tesla is at odds with the interesting factual background of the comment you responded to.