6 ms·

I wonder what the fraction of such people is, in an average company. I've encountered people before whose feeling is "if there's no written rule against it, I'

by gwillen 13y ago

I wonder what the fraction of such people is, in an average company. I've encountered people before whose feeling is "if there's no written rule against it, I'm entitled to do it." Is the best solution to the "soda problem" just to fire those people and be done with it? I'm sure they take liberties with more than just sodas.

softbuilder 13y ago
>"if there's no written rule against it, I'm entitled to do it." This is a variation on "it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission", a disappointingly common point of view within the tech and startup communities.
- philwelch 13y ago
  That's because asking forgiveness rather than permission is a good way of actually getting things done, rather than having everything blocked by permission-givers. As long as you're not being a dick, forgiveness beats permission any day.
  - liquidgecka 13y ago
    Only if you understand the impact of the decision you are making. Most people that use this mantra don't! Its one thing when its "Tony is out of town, I will borrow his lawn mower and ask for permission later." Its completely different when you don't understand the implications of the thing you are doing. I have been the "permission granter" thousands of times where permission couldn't be granted due to everything from in feasibility of the request [There are not that many widgets to give], prioritization [its not worth taking from the main product to feet your pet project], compliance [doing what you want will get us fined], to flat out legality. Developers with this attitude RARELY understand the implications, even in a company of 20 people. They assume that they are getting things done but really they are just moving the problem to a team further down the stack. Within a company, going around a permission giver is almost always a good way to be labeled a "dick" by the people cleaning up after you.
    - nostrademons 13y ago
      I look at in terms of game theory: A person who always follows the "ask permission" strategy ends up with an ingrained unconscious belief that most things they could do are ultimately bad ideas. They end up limiting themselves and only taking actions that are safe, uncontroversial, and unlikely to result in a "no". A person who always follows the "ask forgiveness" strategy will end up getting slapped down a few times and occasionally get a reputation as a dick and have to find new people to work with. But over time, he'll learn a good intuitive sense of both what the limits are (because he's broken them so many times) and why the limits are there (because he's seen the consequences of breaking them). All this means that eventually, the person who asked forgiveness a whole lot eventually ends up being the "permission granter". Eventually he ends up taking an opportunity that the "ask permission" folks deemed was too risky and it works out, and people remember the one huge success more than the dozens of minor messes. So while you may be justified in labeling the "ask forgiveness" guy a dick, that won't stop him from replacing you. Life is sometimes unfair, and assholes sometimes win.
      - psn 13y ago
        I see the other pattern - the forgiveness guy grows a rep as the guy who broke stuff, while the "ask permission" guy often finds out people say "yes". The end result is people are happier working with the ask permission guy. Perhaps I'm an optimist.
        philwelch 13y ago
        Asking forgiveness entails taking a personal risk. If it works out, you're wonderful. If it doesn't work out, you have to answer for your bad judgment. Asking permission is a way of hedging against your own judgment. In other words, it's a great thing to do when you're genuinely not sure. But if you are right, you don't get results as efficiently, since you have to let everyone bikeshed first. Maybe you don't even get results at all.
        waps 13y ago
        I find another pattern works well. You ask permission for ridiculous things, in order to focus other people on what you want to do and how they can help. It's really simple. Don't open with what you want to do, open with what you'd like to get, and make sure that you're mentioning 2 or 3 things you're willing to give up. Don't say "I want to write a complex mobile app for the delivery department", say "I need a $200k to hire 2 programmers, buy 30 different phones, and 6 months of nothing on my plate, you got 15 minutes ?". Obviously, you do this once every 6 months or so at most, preferably less, and follow through. It's amazing, especially in America, how mentioning dollar amounts focuses people on solving problems and looking at opportunities instead of looking for excuses. Finding excuses is universal in organizations, especially big ones, and the higher ups have as much trouble with it at the cleaning lady. Plus, the fact that you even know how much to ask and have a plan for the negotiation means you have built a business case (don't go in without one).
  - softbuilder 13y ago
    >As long as you're not being a dick Maybe. I have certainly had moments where this seemed appropriate. But everyone has flaws and blind spots. It's far too easy to be blind to your own mistakes and to rationalize unsavory behavior.
- liquidgecka 13y ago
  Sadly its getting VERY common. Whats worrying is that people are using that as an excuse to "get things done" that shouldn't ever have been started in the first place. The permission givers are more often than not there for a reason, and more often then not they are saying no for a reason. Compliance is amazingly important because getting it wrong can virtually end your company, yet developers get annoyed when the project they are on is delayed as PCI compliance is checked.. etc. The moment they take the "ask forgiveness" approach they put the company at risk of a serious fine, or worse, company limiting restrictions. [Check Path out for an example]. To everybody that has used this mantra: If you don't understand exactly why you are being blocked by the "permission givers" then don't assume that they will freely give forgiveness when you royally screw something up.
- mdip 13y ago
  It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission I use this statement somewhat regularly, though the simplicity of the statement makes it confusing. Acceptable: My son and I were at a grocery store. He started complaining about his stomach and had thrown up several hours prior. I knew the bathroom at this store was located in an employees-only area. I also knew that one of the managers was a jerk. I could take him to the toilet to discretely regurgitate or ask the manager, risk getting turned down (or just in the time it would take, risk not making it in time) or just walk right past the sign and prevent him from projectile vomiting in the aisle. That was the first phrase I thought of, and I bolted. On the flip side, if I'm on a White House tour and am told that I must stay with the tour group at all times, I'll be sticking with the tour group at all times, thanks. In the context of tech companies, I recall a talk Scott Hanselman gave (very paraphrased) where he said he decided one night to just setup a site for Visual Studio fan art (I think he used Tumblr) which he later shared with his boss and was received very positively. He knew if he had proposed the idea that fifteen departments, thousands of dollars and several weeks would be involved (should we really use Tumblr? would corporate branding be upset? Don't forget to run it by legal! What if someone makes porn of it!). Corporate policy (asking permission) wasn't followed, but the result was infinitely better than if the process was followed and I, personally, loved the site. I'll admit, though, that the line between overstepping with this thinking and doing something very wrong can be very, very, hazy and can land you in serious trouble (often legally).
dorkrawk 13y ago
It seems like a good solution to someone abusing this system would be to call them out on it. It stops because of social pressure (hopefully) and you don't have to take away everybody's fun. Something like an email that reads "We noticed Jim Jenkins hauling out a case of pop last week. This is not acceptable. Don't abuse the system so we can continue to have nice things. Thanks."
300bps 13y ago
>I wonder what the fraction of such people is, in an average company As all things, it depends on the type of position. In a hospital, it's probably not common for surgeons to be hauling Pepsi out to their car every day. In a call center, you'll probably get close to 80% of people that would abuse such a privilege based on my first-hand experience. >Is the best solution to the "soda problem" just to fire those people and be done with it? I'm sure they take liberties with more than just sodas. I think this is an excellent point. I think that personality defects like abusing privileges is one of many variables to consider in hiring, promoting and firing. As you said, if someone is spending their time scheming on saving a few dollars per week then they have serious moral as well as priorities issues.
mikeash 13y ago
Certainly seems like. My reaction to someone loading boxes of company soda into his car is not to take away free soda, but rather fire the malefactor (perhaps after giving him a warning for the first incident). Maybe a bit harsh, but on the other hand, the guy is stealing company property.
jfb 13y ago
People's behavior is also partially a function of their environment. I know that in poisonous workplaces, I've developed bad habits; perhaps if people are boosting soda sufficient to cause alarms to go off, an audit of how they're being treated is a worthwhile place to start?

by gwillen 13y ago

softbuilder 13y ago

>"if there's no written rule against it, I'm entitled to do it." This is a variation on "it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission", a disappointingly common point of view within the tech and startup communities.

philwelch 13y ago
That's because asking forgiveness rather than permission is a good way of actually getting things done, rather than having everything blocked by permission-givers. As long as you're not being a dick, forgiveness beats permission any day.
- liquidgecka 13y ago
  Only if you understand the impact of the decision you are making. Most people that use this mantra don't! Its one thing when its "Tony is out of town, I will borrow his lawn mower and ask for permission later." Its completely different when you don't understand the implications of the thing you are doing. I have been the "permission granter" thousands of times where permission couldn't be granted due to everything from in feasibility of the request [There are not that many widgets to give], prioritization [its not worth taking from the main product to feet your pet project], compliance [doing what you want will get us fined], to flat out legality. Developers with this attitude RARELY understand the implications, even in a company of 20 people. They assume that they are getting things done but really they are just moving the problem to a team further down the stack. Within a company, going around a permission giver is almost always a good way to be labeled a "dick" by the people cleaning up after you.
  - nostrademons 13y ago
    I look at in terms of game theory: A person who always follows the "ask permission" strategy ends up with an ingrained unconscious belief that most things they could do are ultimately bad ideas. They end up limiting themselves and only taking actions that are safe, uncontroversial, and unlikely to result in a "no". A person who always follows the "ask forgiveness" strategy will end up getting slapped down a few times and occasionally get a reputation as a dick and have to find new people to work with. But over time, he'll learn a good intuitive sense of both what the limits are (because he's broken them so many times) and why the limits are there (because he's seen the consequences of breaking them). All this means that eventually, the person who asked forgiveness a whole lot eventually ends up being the "permission granter". Eventually he ends up taking an opportunity that the "ask permission" folks deemed was too risky and it works out, and people remember the one huge success more than the dozens of minor messes. So while you may be justified in labeling the "ask forgiveness" guy a dick, that won't stop him from replacing you. Life is sometimes unfair, and assholes sometimes win.
    - psn 13y ago
      I see the other pattern - the forgiveness guy grows a rep as the guy who broke stuff, while the "ask permission" guy often finds out people say "yes". The end result is people are happier working with the ask permission guy. Perhaps I'm an optimist.
      - philwelch 13y ago
        Asking forgiveness entails taking a personal risk. If it works out, you're wonderful. If it doesn't work out, you have to answer for your bad judgment. Asking permission is a way of hedging against your own judgment. In other words, it's a great thing to do when you're genuinely not sure. But if you are right, you don't get results as efficiently, since you have to let everyone bikeshed first. Maybe you don't even get results at all.
      - waps 13y ago
        I find another pattern works well. You ask permission for ridiculous things, in order to focus other people on what you want to do and how they can help. It's really simple. Don't open with what you want to do, open with what you'd like to get, and make sure that you're mentioning 2 or 3 things you're willing to give up. Don't say "I want to write a complex mobile app for the delivery department", say "I need a $200k to hire 2 programmers, buy 30 different phones, and 6 months of nothing on my plate, you got 15 minutes ?". Obviously, you do this once every 6 months or so at most, preferably less, and follow through. It's amazing, especially in America, how mentioning dollar amounts focuses people on solving problems and looking at opportunities instead of looking for excuses. Finding excuses is universal in organizations, especially big ones, and the higher ups have as much trouble with it at the cleaning lady. Plus, the fact that you even know how much to ask and have a plan for the negotiation means you have built a business case (don't go in without one).
- softbuilder 13y ago
  >As long as you're not being a dick Maybe. I have certainly had moments where this seemed appropriate. But everyone has flaws and blind spots. It's far too easy to be blind to your own mistakes and to rationalize unsavory behavior.
liquidgecka 13y ago
Sadly its getting VERY common. Whats worrying is that people are using that as an excuse to "get things done" that shouldn't ever have been started in the first place. The permission givers are more often than not there for a reason, and more often then not they are saying no for a reason. Compliance is amazingly important because getting it wrong can virtually end your company, yet developers get annoyed when the project they are on is delayed as PCI compliance is checked.. etc. The moment they take the "ask forgiveness" approach they put the company at risk of a serious fine, or worse, company limiting restrictions. [Check Path out for an example]. To everybody that has used this mantra: If you don't understand exactly why you are being blocked by the "permission givers" then don't assume that they will freely give forgiveness when you royally screw something up.
mdip 13y ago
It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission I use this statement somewhat regularly, though the simplicity of the statement makes it confusing. Acceptable: My son and I were at a grocery store. He started complaining about his stomach and had thrown up several hours prior. I knew the bathroom at this store was located in an employees-only area. I also knew that one of the managers was a jerk. I could take him to the toilet to discretely regurgitate or ask the manager, risk getting turned down (or just in the time it would take, risk not making it in time) or just walk right past the sign and prevent him from projectile vomiting in the aisle. That was the first phrase I thought of, and I bolted. On the flip side, if I'm on a White House tour and am told that I must stay with the tour group at all times, I'll be sticking with the tour group at all times, thanks. In the context of tech companies, I recall a talk Scott Hanselman gave (very paraphrased) where he said he decided one night to just setup a site for Visual Studio fan art (I think he used Tumblr) which he later shared with his boss and was received very positively. He knew if he had proposed the idea that fifteen departments, thousands of dollars and several weeks would be involved (should we really use Tumblr? would corporate branding be upset? Don't forget to run it by legal! What if someone makes porn of it!). Corporate policy (asking permission) wasn't followed, but the result was infinitely better than if the process was followed and I, personally, loved the site. I'll admit, though, that the line between overstepping with this thinking and doing something very wrong can be very, very, hazy and can land you in serious trouble (often legally).

dorkrawk 13y ago

It seems like a good solution to someone abusing this system would be to call them out on it. It stops because of social pressure (hopefully) and you don't have to take away everybody's fun. Something like an email that reads "We noticed Jim Jenkins hauling out a case of pop last week. This is not acceptable. Don't abuse the system so we can continue to have nice things. Thanks."

300bps 13y ago

>I wonder what the fraction of such people is, in an average company As all things, it depends on the type of position. In a hospital, it's probably not common for surgeons to be hauling Pepsi out to their car every day. In a call center, you'll probably get close to 80% of people that would abuse such a privilege based on my first-hand experience. >Is the best solution to the "soda problem" just to fire those people and be done with it? I'm sure they take liberties with more than just sodas. I think this is an excellent point. I think that personality defects like abusing privileges is one of many variables to consider in hiring, promoting and firing. As you said, if someone is spending their time scheming on saving a few dollars per week then they have serious moral as well as priorities issues.

mikeash 13y ago

Certainly seems like. My reaction to someone loading boxes of company soda into his car is not to take away free soda, but rather fire the malefactor (perhaps after giving him a warning for the first incident). Maybe a bit harsh, but on the other hand, the guy is stealing company property.

jfb 13y ago

People's behavior is also partially a function of their environment. I know that in poisonous workplaces, I've developed bad habits; perhaps if people are boosting soda sufficient to cause alarms to go off, an audit of how they're being treated is a worthwhile place to start?