12 ms·

Indie developers cannot self-publish on Xbox One

148 points by jwallaceparker 13y ago

teamyuri 13y ago
Well, that's stupid.
- bionsuba 13y ago
  I can see that you are new around here and I just wanted to fill you in on why you are being downvoted. Comments like yours add nothing to the discussion and the level of discourse in this topic would be exactly the same if it was removed. No one is disagreeing with you, we just want some substance.
kevingadd 13y ago
It's funny that Microsoft feels XBox Live Indie Games was such a mistake and seems to think that indies did so much harm to them, given that indies generally feel like Microsoft has been intentionally harming them from the start. They basically left that system to rot without supervision, and then it did. Where's the surprise in that? It's like they decided to greenlight it only so they could sabotage it and use it as proof that they don't have any reason to work with indies. It's incredibly stupid given that some of the best indie XBox Live Arcade exclusives (or former exclusives) were all built using XNA - Bastion, Fez, Dust - but they screwed those devs as hard as they could too, despite the fact that those games were partially funded by deals with Microsoft!
- gamblor956 13y ago
  Of those 3, only Fez was "screwed" by Microsoft, and that was Fish's own fault--he released a buggy game without adequate QA...and a buggier patch with even worse QA...and wouldn't (but could afford to) pay for the follow-up patch that would supposedly have fixed the bugs he didn't fix twice before. But yeah, it is an incredibly short-sighted decision for Microsoft to eliminate the Indie program. Some of the best new games/studios rose up through that--using C#, DirectX, and other parts of the MS toolchain--but it looks like the next generation of indies will be learning the PS4/OpenGL toolchain instead.
  - DanHulton 13y ago
    It's absolutely insane to me that devs have to pay to get their patches allowed onto the XBox in the first place. Even Apple doesn't charge you for a bugfix patch. You should never have to choose between wrecking yourself financially or reputationally like that. I really hope the new XBox Bro tanks super hard because of nonsense like this.
    - AUmrysh 13y ago
      Apparently they do this because they do their own QA/testing. It's pretty sad that they are charging users $50/year and then charging developers $10,000+ for patches. Isn't the subscription supposed to pay for the infrastructure? I can understand MS wanting to protect their baby, but the walls on the garden are so high they keep light out. Valve wasn't having any of that pay per update deal and that's why TF2 on the 360 hasn't had anywhere near the number of updates as on PC. MS has done a lot to hurt not just indie developers, but first party (Bungie) developers as well. Remember that ordeal with MS forcing them to release Halo 3 before it was ready and then the whole team threatened to quit? It's sad that they've taken a digital distribution system like Xbox Live and turned it into a cash cow on both ends. They're stifling not only innovation, but regular development processes, with their blind profiteering.
      - usea 13y ago
        Not only that, but the fact that such a buggy patch (Fez) came out which deleted save files etc, it wasn't exactly clear what value $10k patch QA was getting you.
        gamblor956 13y ago
        First patch is free--only the 2nd patch and beyond cost the developer.
        jonny_eh 13y ago
        So they don't QA the first patch, but they'll QA the second patch? I don't follow your logic.
- kabdib 13y ago
  > _They basically left that system to rot without supervision_ A few things were probably going on: 1. Microsoft is all about control and process. A lot of this is justified with "security" (so devs don't add holes to the system) or "content control" (so Little Timmy isn't allowed to see giant pink ... stuff, in games) or "we've always done it this way" (which is /safe/). 2. Promotions at MS are gated by how much you're perceived to be involved in things, not necessarily by how much value you are adding. So going to lots of meetings and being visible (e.g., adding process, or being a gatekeeper) is rewarded much more than making something go smoothly. Being invisible at review time is Not A Good Thing. Therefore: lots of accretion. 3. Reviews again: "I made that thing we did last year continue to go well" is weaker than "I did whizzy features X, Y and Z". (Hell, I've done this myself). You can't appear to be sitting on your butt. The end result is that MS becomes difficult to work with, appears to lose focus, and cycles new, somewhat flaky technology at developers at unsustainable rates. The "new shiny" of two years ago becomes a wasteland because nobody ever got a good review based on the efforts of 18 months ago.
  - rodgerd 13y ago
    The odd thing about 1 is that Microsoft's empire is essentially based on the opposite premise. The foundation of their success was selling an open-for-developers OS on open hardware.
mtgx 13y ago
It's ok, Sony seems to be willing to take them: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/04/sony-indies/ http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/04/sony-indies/ So far everything I've seen makes PS4 a clear choice over Xbox One as a console, although I'm still curious what Valve has in mind, but it doesn't look like they are in a hurry to announce anything so could be another year or two of waiting.
- nthitz 13y ago
  Funny. So far everything I've seen makes XO a clear choice for me over the PS4. To each their own. Not to say, I don't want Indie developers, but that is not really a factor I even consider when making a purchase.
  - batgaijin 13y ago
    Dude, a lot of games are going to start being 'indie'. The programmers are smart - I foresee a lot of good programmers going into either middleware or kickstarter. The next gen consoles, with their power, are going to bring dynamic animation and procedural 3D environments and numerous innovative areas so that small teams can unshackle themselves from the legions of artists necessary today.
    - seivan 13y ago
      I agree. Lower operation costs, no need to pay all those worthless sack of shit suits and manager cunts. 90% of paid salaries will be to people who contribute to sound, code, graphics and other things that is shipped.
      - witek 13y ago
        Strong words but you also need somebody to make sure it all comes together and actually ships.
        princess3000 13y ago
Osiris 13y ago
I'm honestly quite surprised given how important independent games have been for iOS and Android. I was honestly expecting both players to provide app stores where developers could submit applications, whether games or not, possibly giving them an advantage over the other platform by having more apps, better development tools, etc.
- _lex 13y ago
  Problem is the difference in the budget to bring a great game to market. It's unlikely that a tiny team can bring a great console game to market, but that happens all the time on mobile. But I agree - it seems to make sense to make it easier to develop games (aka simpler, cheaper, better-designed tooling that does more heavy lifting), and add an appstore. This is Oya's approach, and the big problem with this approach is that it doesn't really invite developers with deep pockets : developers who can actually pay to 1)develop a quality product, 2) advertise their product across mainstream media - which will drive demand of your platform. And the final problem is that it'll be way less profitable for Oya: console games are so overpriced that they subsidize the consoles themselves. But apps can't really subsidize the iPhone - they're a low-margin business. I think the real solution is to give away both the consoles and the games, but charge a monthly subscription, and divvy it up based on engagement in games. It'll be the new cable tv: $25 for basic service (you only get access to 20% of hot games, but all regular games), and $45 for premium access to everything, with netflix and hulu plus thrown in for free.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    I don't know if that's strictly true, there's a number of indie titles that have done well on console and are the work of small 1-3 man teams. Super Meat Boy, Braid and Fez are the canonical examples but there are no doubt many others. OTOH if you let any old shit onto your store then you do get a lemon market effect which seems to have happened with mobile gaming.
    - _lex 13y ago
      Those are rare successes, but if you look at the hits on the appstore, they're much more uniformly indie.
Delenda 13y ago
I'm actually fairly confused right now... hoping someone here can enlighten me. "[..] Microsoft has confirmed that it will release no new versions of its XNA game development toolset, which all Xbox Live Indie Games are developed in." The system is not backwards compatible, because it apparently is a rebuild from the very core. The old code that drove previous games will not run on the new system, and anything being written for it must be written or ported to whatever the new languages and requirements are. If they don't publish an update to the toolkit that lets indie developers write for the system, doesn't that essentially mean there can't be any indie development for the system? It looks like they're basically saying we'll keep things just as locked down as they used to be, oh and also we won't be providing the necessary tool to even begin working on our system. (Unless they intend to release a new dev-kit and just didn't see any reason to note that?)
- noct 13y ago
  Rebuilt from the core isn't very specific; the architecture has switched from PowerPC to x86. There are some solutions (emulation, secondary chipset), but none that aren't difficult and expensive. As XNA is .NET based, they would only need to port the runtime libraries to the new native APIs. They dropped support for the only SDK they offered that produced forward-compatible games. Unless they announce a new form of XBLIG, the only way for indies to release games for the One will be via a publisher, and even with a distribution-only deal, it means MS is effectively enforcing a tax on indies that's paid out to AAAs.
- stonemetal 13y ago
  XNA is .net based, so as long as the new box has a .net runtime it should work just fine. The only downside is XNA is very old Graphics wise (dx9 based I think).
lucid00 13y ago
The thing that bothers me the most about this is that Microsoft pretty much confirmed yesterday that the XBox One is running some form of the Windows Runtime. (Source: http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-runs-three-operating-systems/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-runs-three-opera...) So if I want to make an app work across Windows RT, Windows 8, Windows Phone 8 and the XBox One, I have to submit three separate apps that are all coded the same way, to three different app stores. Why couldn't Microsoft just bring the Windows 8 marketplace to XBox One and Windows Phone 8? That alone would fix the indie self-publishing problem and in turn make the XBox One more appealing.
- wmf 13y ago
  Mouse vs. touch vs. controller is one thing. MS would probably also like to avoid buggy apps that have only been tested on one platform. WORA has never really worked, so if you want to release your app on four platforms you need to test it four times. Compared to the testing, submitting to four app stores seems like a small cost.
  - lucid00 13y ago
    "so if you want to release your app on four platforms you need to test it four times." Wouldn't submitting 4 separate apps require the same amount of attention (if not more)?
soemarko 13y ago
This is a super confusing move from Microsoft. First, don't they want indie game developers to jump to Windows phones and tablets? I'd presume Microsoft could (if not already) let developers to code once and publish everywhere that speaks Microsoft, no? Second, Walking Dead game was crowned 2012 of the year by many publications, and my personal game of the year Journey, both are technically indie? Shouldn't that mattered? Sigh, as usual, I'll just vote with my wallet.
- Lewisham 13y ago
  Also, Walking Dead's episodic format was at risk by Microsoft's XBLA release policy, where publishers are given slots that they can have, and you don't get any more (think like airstrip use at an airport). So they had to end-run it by having each episode as DLC, rather than getting a new announcement and a stand-alone program. Microsoft's old policies were workable but obnoxious. Instead of opening things up, they're making it worse. Nuts.
  - JackpotDen 13y ago
    The reason we have this is that apple have proven you can get away with the walled garden. Now it's microsoft's turn to do it. NB : they are both doing bad things.
kvb 13y ago
Even on the PS4 indies need to be invited to publish, though, right?
- wmf 13y ago
  It sounds like if Sony invites you then at least you get to keep the money from your game. If MS invites you then a middleman publisher takes a slice of your revenue.
  - teamonkey 13y ago
    If you don't have an external publisher then Microsoft or Sony must agree to be the publisher on XBLA or PSN. I think on both consoles every title gets assigned a product manager, for example.
- rje 13y ago
  No, any indie who wants to can apply to be a ps3/ps4/vita developer. There are some minimal requirements but I haven't heard of folks getting turned away. On top of that Sony has also been actively courting indie developers with interesting games and doing things handing out 'loaner' devkits to make the development process less expensive. I know several 1-5 man teams that are working on Sony titles and they are all very happy with their relationship with Sony.
mindstab 13y ago
http://www.ouya.tv/ http://www.ouya.tv/ It's a dev kit itself as well and its android and yeah, they'll publish all indie stuff. :)
- adregan 13y ago
  Several indie game makers I've talked to are really excited about this for all these reasons + the low barrier of entry ($99).
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
twidlit 13y ago
This means that most of XBLA type/calibre is still going to happen (90% or 100% of XBLA had publishers) This move is more for quality control (plus data on the lackluster downloads of Xbox Indie games) rather than hatred for indies. Its still short sighted but it would also make Xbox One deal with less cruft of games, thereby avoiding the signal-to-noise being bad (remember all games are not silo'ed anymore.) making the game library browsing experience just generally more appealing to the mainstream customer. I doubt these demographic will miss Xbox indie-type games, heck I don't think they even visited that tab. But I do like the intense focus on games by the PS4 camp more. Just happy that Xbox One and PS4 are now going in totally divergent paths.
- qompiler 13y ago
  I agree, this is more about quality control which Sony has been enforcing since PS3 as well, which funny enough was also called indie unfriendly for not having a similar system like the XBLA/XBLIG!
jiggy2011 13y ago
This is kinda strange. I know that the indie market on 360 wasn't all that great. But the way they are billing this thing as an overall living room system rather than just a game system makes me think that there could be great potential for more casual games as well as actual applications.
te_chris 13y ago
Sony arent just making it easy to publish, according to this (http://blogs.unity3d.com/2013/03/21/unity-coming-to-sony-consoles-this-year/ http://blogs.unity3d.com/2013/03/21/unity-coming-to-sony-con...) they're actively making it easy to develop for their ecosystem, meanwhile MS are killing XNA. At least those C# game devs will have somewhere to go with their skills...
ianstallings 13y ago
I'd take all the supposed garbage in the indie dev section to get the gems that appear there from time to time, like Cthulhu's Revenge or Miner Dig Deep. I spent hours playing those games and they cost me a few bucks max. I do not understand this move.
gamble 13y ago
The whole design of the One seems mired in the past. No substantial changes to the developer relationship, no acknowledgement of the app market, a subscription service to go online, DRM and used game fees to protect the existing retail model, etc. And in exchange... a cable box? Will people even have cable in five years? It's like they set out to design the next Xbox without acknowledging that anything other than hardware has changed since 2005.
- anonymousab 13y ago
  It doesn't even function as a cable box, it just adds an overlay to one being plugged in. Ridiculous. Like adding Meta features to VCR playback in 2000.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  Worth mentioning, the "used game fees" thing is highly disputed right now. There are different people within Microsoft and within official channels who are saying different things.
  - gamble 13y ago
    That's the biggest fail from the announcement. Microsoft mentioned a number of things that are guaranteed to provoke gamers, like used game fees and always-on DRM, then refused to clarify any of them. Some reporters present got flat refusals to answer questions while others were given different answers depending on who they talked to.
  - chc 13y ago
    Do you have any links to anyone clearly disputing it? Because I haven't seen any. The closest I've seen is a guy saying, effectively, "Of course we wouldn't do that! Unless it's a used game. We don't want to talk about that case yet."
    - gamble 13y ago
      From what I can tell buying a physical disk gives you an activation key that you apply to your console. Any profile on your console can play that game. If you bring the disk to another console and use your profile, you can also play the game. If you try to use the game on another console and profile, you either have to buy another copy or transfer the license from your profile to theirs.
neovive 13y ago
My favorite Xbox game for years has been Castle Crashers which I assume is an indie game. Will indie games previously purchased on Xbox Live run on Xbox One?
- EtienneK 13y ago
  No. http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-not-backwards-compatible-with-360-discs-xbla-purchases/ http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-not-backwards-com...
- JackpotDen 13y ago
  You can get it on steam though. I still don't know what I'm going to do with my saved game that has all characters unlocked :(
drawkbox 13y ago
This is truly strange considering what has happened on mobile appstores that believe in a free market. They have benefitted heavily from it. Lots of new great companies like Halfbrick, Firemint and Rovio might not have happened. At the most basic level they will lose lots of hardware sales as the app/game development that surrounds mobile appstores sells lots and lots of hardware. Ballmer's scream should be changed to (Approved) Developers, (Approved) Developers, (Approved) Developers since Microsoft knows better what is good and what isn't than an open gaming market. The top down ivory tower controlling nature of consoles still seems to exist in the Xbone.
skc 13y ago
I think there's a bit of lazy thinking here in these comments. There are XBox branded indie games on Windows Phone and Windows 8. Just because MS isn't publically saying anything doesn't justify jumping to this thread title's conclusion
fernandotakai 13y ago
Ok, so this article from polygon links to an article on shacknews[1]. But the article on shacknews uses an interview from 2011[2] that's talking about xbox live on the 360, not on the xbox one. We can say that if microsoft didn't say anything about this policy, it will stay - but at the same time, we don't know because nothing up-to-date was said. Also, the article from shacklenews uses an article from gamesutra[3] to say "Xbox Live Indie Games are exempt from that policy, but that marketplace isn't necessary seen as viable." But from the same article "[..] at least for mid and high-level performers, XBLIG is becoming a viable platform for hobbyists and single-man shops to make some cash and get their game seen" [1] http://www.shacknews.com/article/79309/xbox-one-wont-allow-indies-to-self-publish-games http://www.shacknews.com/article/79309/xbox-one-wont-allow-i... [2] http://www.psnstores.com/2011/10/interview-eufloria/ http://www.psnstores.com/2011/10/interview-eufloria/ [3] http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26932/InDepth_Xbox_Live_Indie_Games_Sales_For_2009_Plus_Some_Perspective.php http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26932/InDepth_Xbox_Live_I...

148 points by jwallaceparker 13y ago

teamyuri 13y ago

Well, that's stupid.

bionsuba 13y ago
I can see that you are new around here and I just wanted to fill you in on why you are being downvoted. Comments like yours add nothing to the discussion and the level of discourse in this topic would be exactly the same if it was removed. No one is disagreeing with you, we just want some substance.

kevingadd 13y ago

It's funny that Microsoft feels XBox Live Indie Games was such a mistake and seems to think that indies did so much harm to them, given that indies generally feel like Microsoft has been intentionally harming them from the start. They basically left that system to rot without supervision, and then it did. Where's the surprise in that? It's like they decided to greenlight it only so they could sabotage it and use it as proof that they don't have any reason to work with indies. It's incredibly stupid given that some of the best indie XBox Live Arcade exclusives (or former exclusives) were all built using XNA - Bastion, Fez, Dust - but they screwed those devs as hard as they could too, despite the fact that those games were partially funded by deals with Microsoft!

gamblor956 13y ago
Of those 3, only Fez was "screwed" by Microsoft, and that was Fish's own fault--he released a buggy game without adequate QA...and a buggier patch with even worse QA...and wouldn't (but could afford to) pay for the follow-up patch that would supposedly have fixed the bugs he didn't fix twice before. But yeah, it is an incredibly short-sighted decision for Microsoft to eliminate the Indie program. Some of the best new games/studios rose up through that--using C#, DirectX, and other parts of the MS toolchain--but it looks like the next generation of indies will be learning the PS4/OpenGL toolchain instead.
- DanHulton 13y ago
  It's absolutely insane to me that devs have to pay to get their patches allowed onto the XBox in the first place. Even Apple doesn't charge you for a bugfix patch. You should never have to choose between wrecking yourself financially or reputationally like that. I really hope the new XBox Bro tanks super hard because of nonsense like this.
  - AUmrysh 13y ago
    Apparently they do this because they do their own QA/testing. It's pretty sad that they are charging users $50/year and then charging developers $10,000+ for patches. Isn't the subscription supposed to pay for the infrastructure? I can understand MS wanting to protect their baby, but the walls on the garden are so high they keep light out. Valve wasn't having any of that pay per update deal and that's why TF2 on the 360 hasn't had anywhere near the number of updates as on PC. MS has done a lot to hurt not just indie developers, but first party (Bungie) developers as well. Remember that ordeal with MS forcing them to release Halo 3 before it was ready and then the whole team threatened to quit? It's sad that they've taken a digital distribution system like Xbox Live and turned it into a cash cow on both ends. They're stifling not only innovation, but regular development processes, with their blind profiteering.
    - usea 13y ago
      Not only that, but the fact that such a buggy patch (Fez) came out which deleted save files etc, it wasn't exactly clear what value $10k patch QA was getting you.
      - gamblor956 13y ago
        First patch is free--only the 2nd patch and beyond cost the developer.
        jonny_eh 13y ago
        So they don't QA the first patch, but they'll QA the second patch? I don't follow your logic.
kabdib 13y ago
> _They basically left that system to rot without supervision_ A few things were probably going on: 1. Microsoft is all about control and process. A lot of this is justified with "security" (so devs don't add holes to the system) or "content control" (so Little Timmy isn't allowed to see giant pink ... stuff, in games) or "we've always done it this way" (which is /safe/). 2. Promotions at MS are gated by how much you're perceived to be involved in things, not necessarily by how much value you are adding. So going to lots of meetings and being visible (e.g., adding process, or being a gatekeeper) is rewarded much more than making something go smoothly. Being invisible at review time is Not A Good Thing. Therefore: lots of accretion. 3. Reviews again: "I made that thing we did last year continue to go well" is weaker than "I did whizzy features X, Y and Z". (Hell, I've done this myself). You can't appear to be sitting on your butt. The end result is that MS becomes difficult to work with, appears to lose focus, and cycles new, somewhat flaky technology at developers at unsustainable rates. The "new shiny" of two years ago becomes a wasteland because nobody ever got a good review based on the efforts of 18 months ago.
- rodgerd 13y ago
  The odd thing about 1 is that Microsoft's empire is essentially based on the opposite premise. The foundation of their success was selling an open-for-developers OS on open hardware.

mtgx 13y ago

It's ok, Sony seems to be willing to take them: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/04/sony-indies/ http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/04/sony-indies/ So far everything I've seen makes PS4 a clear choice over Xbox One as a console, although I'm still curious what Valve has in mind, but it doesn't look like they are in a hurry to announce anything so could be another year or two of waiting.

nthitz 13y ago
Funny. So far everything I've seen makes XO a clear choice for me over the PS4. To each their own. Not to say, I don't want Indie developers, but that is not really a factor I even consider when making a purchase.
- batgaijin 13y ago
  Dude, a lot of games are going to start being 'indie'. The programmers are smart - I foresee a lot of good programmers going into either middleware or kickstarter. The next gen consoles, with their power, are going to bring dynamic animation and procedural 3D environments and numerous innovative areas so that small teams can unshackle themselves from the legions of artists necessary today.
  - seivan 13y ago
    I agree. Lower operation costs, no need to pay all those worthless sack of shit suits and manager cunts. 90% of paid salaries will be to people who contribute to sound, code, graphics and other things that is shipped.
    - witek 13y ago
      Strong words but you also need somebody to make sure it all comes together and actually ships.
      - princess3000 13y ago

Osiris 13y ago

I'm honestly quite surprised given how important independent games have been for iOS and Android. I was honestly expecting both players to provide app stores where developers could submit applications, whether games or not, possibly giving them an advantage over the other platform by having more apps, better development tools, etc.

_lex 13y ago
Problem is the difference in the budget to bring a great game to market. It's unlikely that a tiny team can bring a great console game to market, but that happens all the time on mobile. But I agree - it seems to make sense to make it easier to develop games (aka simpler, cheaper, better-designed tooling that does more heavy lifting), and add an appstore. This is Oya's approach, and the big problem with this approach is that it doesn't really invite developers with deep pockets : developers who can actually pay to 1)develop a quality product, 2) advertise their product across mainstream media - which will drive demand of your platform. And the final problem is that it'll be way less profitable for Oya: console games are so overpriced that they subsidize the consoles themselves. But apps can't really subsidize the iPhone - they're a low-margin business. I think the real solution is to give away both the consoles and the games, but charge a monthly subscription, and divvy it up based on engagement in games. It'll be the new cable tv: $25 for basic service (you only get access to 20% of hot games, but all regular games), and $45 for premium access to everything, with netflix and hulu plus thrown in for free.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  I don't know if that's strictly true, there's a number of indie titles that have done well on console and are the work of small 1-3 man teams. Super Meat Boy, Braid and Fez are the canonical examples but there are no doubt many others. OTOH if you let any old shit onto your store then you do get a lemon market effect which seems to have happened with mobile gaming.
  - _lex 13y ago
    Those are rare successes, but if you look at the hits on the appstore, they're much more uniformly indie.

Delenda 13y ago

I'm actually fairly confused right now... hoping someone here can enlighten me. "[..] Microsoft has confirmed that it will release no new versions of its XNA game development toolset, which all Xbox Live Indie Games are developed in." The system is not backwards compatible, because it apparently is a rebuild from the very core. The old code that drove previous games will not run on the new system, and anything being written for it must be written or ported to whatever the new languages and requirements are. If they don't publish an update to the toolkit that lets indie developers write for the system, doesn't that essentially mean there can't be any indie development for the system? It looks like they're basically saying we'll keep things just as locked down as they used to be, oh and also we won't be providing the necessary tool to even begin working on our system. (Unless they intend to release a new dev-kit and just didn't see any reason to note that?)

noct 13y ago
Rebuilt from the core isn't very specific; the architecture has switched from PowerPC to x86. There are some solutions (emulation, secondary chipset), but none that aren't difficult and expensive. As XNA is .NET based, they would only need to port the runtime libraries to the new native APIs. They dropped support for the only SDK they offered that produced forward-compatible games. Unless they announce a new form of XBLIG, the only way for indies to release games for the One will be via a publisher, and even with a distribution-only deal, it means MS is effectively enforcing a tax on indies that's paid out to AAAs.
stonemetal 13y ago
XNA is .net based, so as long as the new box has a .net runtime it should work just fine. The only downside is XNA is very old Graphics wise (dx9 based I think).

lucid00 13y ago

The thing that bothers me the most about this is that Microsoft pretty much confirmed yesterday that the XBox One is running some form of the Windows Runtime. (Source: http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-runs-three-operating-systems/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-runs-three-opera...) So if I want to make an app work across Windows RT, Windows 8, Windows Phone 8 and the XBox One, I have to submit three separate apps that are all coded the same way, to three different app stores. Why couldn't Microsoft just bring the Windows 8 marketplace to XBox One and Windows Phone 8? That alone would fix the indie self-publishing problem and in turn make the XBox One more appealing.

wmf 13y ago
Mouse vs. touch vs. controller is one thing. MS would probably also like to avoid buggy apps that have only been tested on one platform. WORA has never really worked, so if you want to release your app on four platforms you need to test it four times. Compared to the testing, submitting to four app stores seems like a small cost.
- lucid00 13y ago
  "so if you want to release your app on four platforms you need to test it four times." Wouldn't submitting 4 separate apps require the same amount of attention (if not more)?

soemarko 13y ago

This is a super confusing move from Microsoft. First, don't they want indie game developers to jump to Windows phones and tablets? I'd presume Microsoft could (if not already) let developers to code once and publish everywhere that speaks Microsoft, no? Second, Walking Dead game was crowned 2012 of the year by many publications, and my personal game of the year Journey, both are technically indie? Shouldn't that mattered? Sigh, as usual, I'll just vote with my wallet.

Lewisham 13y ago
Also, Walking Dead's episodic format was at risk by Microsoft's XBLA release policy, where publishers are given slots that they can have, and you don't get any more (think like airstrip use at an airport). So they had to end-run it by having each episode as DLC, rather than getting a new announcement and a stand-alone program. Microsoft's old policies were workable but obnoxious. Instead of opening things up, they're making it worse. Nuts.
- JackpotDen 13y ago
  The reason we have this is that apple have proven you can get away with the walled garden. Now it's microsoft's turn to do it. NB : they are both doing bad things.

kvb 13y ago

Even on the PS4 indies need to be invited to publish, though, right?

wmf 13y ago
It sounds like if Sony invites you then at least you get to keep the money from your game. If MS invites you then a middleman publisher takes a slice of your revenue.
- teamonkey 13y ago
  If you don't have an external publisher then Microsoft or Sony must agree to be the publisher on XBLA or PSN. I think on both consoles every title gets assigned a product manager, for example.
rje 13y ago
No, any indie who wants to can apply to be a ps3/ps4/vita developer. There are some minimal requirements but I haven't heard of folks getting turned away. On top of that Sony has also been actively courting indie developers with interesting games and doing things handing out 'loaner' devkits to make the development process less expensive. I know several 1-5 man teams that are working on Sony titles and they are all very happy with their relationship with Sony.

mindstab 13y ago

http://www.ouya.tv/ http://www.ouya.tv/ It's a dev kit itself as well and its android and yeah, they'll publish all indie stuff. :)

adregan 13y ago
Several indie game makers I've talked to are really excited about this for all these reasons + the low barrier of entry ($99).

deleted 13y ago

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twidlit 13y ago

This means that most of XBLA type/calibre is still going to happen (90% or 100% of XBLA had publishers) This move is more for quality control (plus data on the lackluster downloads of Xbox Indie games) rather than hatred for indies. Its still short sighted but it would also make Xbox One deal with less cruft of games, thereby avoiding the signal-to-noise being bad (remember all games are not silo'ed anymore.) making the game library browsing experience just generally more appealing to the mainstream customer. I doubt these demographic will miss Xbox indie-type games, heck I don't think they even visited that tab. But I do like the intense focus on games by the PS4 camp more. Just happy that Xbox One and PS4 are now going in totally divergent paths.

qompiler 13y ago
I agree, this is more about quality control which Sony has been enforcing since PS3 as well, which funny enough was also called indie unfriendly for not having a similar system like the XBLA/XBLIG!

jiggy2011 13y ago

This is kinda strange. I know that the indie market on 360 wasn't all that great. But the way they are billing this thing as an overall living room system rather than just a game system makes me think that there could be great potential for more casual games as well as actual applications.

te_chris 13y ago

Sony arent just making it easy to publish, according to this (http://blogs.unity3d.com/2013/03/21/unity-coming-to-sony-consoles-this-year/ http://blogs.unity3d.com/2013/03/21/unity-coming-to-sony-con...) they're actively making it easy to develop for their ecosystem, meanwhile MS are killing XNA. At least those C# game devs will have somewhere to go with their skills...

ianstallings 13y ago

I'd take all the supposed garbage in the indie dev section to get the gems that appear there from time to time, like Cthulhu's Revenge or Miner Dig Deep. I spent hours playing those games and they cost me a few bucks max. I do not understand this move.

gamble 13y ago

The whole design of the One seems mired in the past. No substantial changes to the developer relationship, no acknowledgement of the app market, a subscription service to go online, DRM and used game fees to protect the existing retail model, etc. And in exchange... a cable box? Will people even have cable in five years? It's like they set out to design the next Xbox without acknowledging that anything other than hardware has changed since 2005.

anonymousab 13y ago
It doesn't even function as a cable box, it just adds an overlay to one being plugged in. Ridiculous. Like adding Meta features to VCR playback in 2000.
Karunamon 13y ago
Worth mentioning, the "used game fees" thing is highly disputed right now. There are different people within Microsoft and within official channels who are saying different things.
- gamble 13y ago
  That's the biggest fail from the announcement. Microsoft mentioned a number of things that are guaranteed to provoke gamers, like used game fees and always-on DRM, then refused to clarify any of them. Some reporters present got flat refusals to answer questions while others were given different answers depending on who they talked to.
- chc 13y ago
  Do you have any links to anyone clearly disputing it? Because I haven't seen any. The closest I've seen is a guy saying, effectively, "Of course we wouldn't do that! Unless it's a used game. We don't want to talk about that case yet."
  - gamble 13y ago
    From what I can tell buying a physical disk gives you an activation key that you apply to your console. Any profile on your console can play that game. If you bring the disk to another console and use your profile, you can also play the game. If you try to use the game on another console and profile, you either have to buy another copy or transfer the license from your profile to theirs.

neovive 13y ago

My favorite Xbox game for years has been Castle Crashers which I assume is an indie game. Will indie games previously purchased on Xbox Live run on Xbox One?

EtienneK 13y ago
No. http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-not-backwards-compatible-with-360-discs-xbla-purchases/ http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-not-backwards-com...
JackpotDen 13y ago
You can get it on steam though. I still don't know what I'm going to do with my saved game that has all characters unlocked :(

drawkbox 13y ago

This is truly strange considering what has happened on mobile appstores that believe in a free market. They have benefitted heavily from it. Lots of new great companies like Halfbrick, Firemint and Rovio might not have happened. At the most basic level they will lose lots of hardware sales as the app/game development that surrounds mobile appstores sells lots and lots of hardware. Ballmer's scream should be changed to (Approved) Developers, (Approved) Developers, (Approved) Developers since Microsoft knows better what is good and what isn't than an open gaming market. The top down ivory tower controlling nature of consoles still seems to exist in the Xbone.

skc 13y ago

I think there's a bit of lazy thinking here in these comments. There are XBox branded indie games on Windows Phone and Windows 8. Just because MS isn't publically saying anything doesn't justify jumping to this thread title's conclusion

fernandotakai 13y ago

Ok, so this article from polygon links to an article on shacknews[1]. But the article on shacknews uses an interview from 2011[2] that's talking about xbox live on the 360, not on the xbox one. We can say that if microsoft didn't say anything about this policy, it will stay - but at the same time, we don't know because nothing up-to-date was said. Also, the article from shacklenews uses an article from gamesutra[3] to say "Xbox Live Indie Games are exempt from that policy, but that marketplace isn't necessary seen as viable." But from the same article "[..] at least for mid and high-level performers, XBLIG is becoming a viable platform for hobbyists and single-man shops to make some cash and get their game seen" [1] http://www.shacknews.com/article/79309/xbox-one-wont-allow-indies-to-self-publish-games http://www.shacknews.com/article/79309/xbox-one-wont-allow-i... [2] http://www.psnstores.com/2011/10/interview-eufloria/ http://www.psnstores.com/2011/10/interview-eufloria/ [3] http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26932/InDepth_Xbox_Live_Indie_Games_Sales_For_2009_Plus_Some_Perspective.php http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26932/InDepth_Xbox_Live_I...