4 ms·

Guys, you have to remember that Linus Torvalds is from Finland where the communication culture is a bit different. For example, the Finnish language does not ha

by exDM69 13y ago

Guys, you have to remember that Linus Torvalds is from Finland where the communication culture is a bit different. For example, the Finnish language does not have an equivalent for the word "please" so it's sometimes really hard to be courteous and polite for a finn. Linus' native language is actually Swedish with a Finnish dialect, he's from a bilingual family. But in any case, the tone of his verbal output is definitely Finnish :) Yes he sometime pisses someone off because of his blunt way of saying things but that kind of things happen when communicating across cultural and language barriers.

StavrosK 13y ago
Hmm, so you can't ask for something politely in Finnish? How do you distinguish?
- nraynaud 13y ago
  I guess it's by not adding insults at the end?
  - StavrosK 13y ago
    Well, then I've been doing it wrong. Fuck you. Damn!
- bad_user 13y ago
  Don't know Finnish, but words and expressions change meaning by context, not to mention the tone used in spoken language, which often gets lost in written words, that's probably how. It's interesting to think of differences between languages and how that influences culture. For instance in Chinese the verbs themselves do not change to express tense. Expressing tense, for example "I will do that", is made by usage of adverbs or putting the words in the proper context. Asian cultures apparently have a preference towards living in the present, probably more than any other cultures. Think Buddhism.
- abrahamsen 13y ago
  If the knife is still in the sheath, the question is polite. At least, according to Danish national stereotypes of Finns. http://satwcomic.com/no-invitation http://satwcomic.com/no-invitation
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- asmosoinio 13y ago
  Here's an example, somewhat ordered by increasing politeness: Do this => Tee näin Can you do this => Voitko tehdä näin Could you do this => Voisitko tehdä näin Would you kindly do this => Olisitko ystävällinen ja tekisit näin A too literal translation of the last would be: Could you be friendly and do this. "Would you do this, please?" I think would work in English, with approximately same politeness level.
  - StavrosK 13y ago
    Ah, that's similar to what we do in Greek. We have a word for "please", but very rarely use it. Instead, it also goes "do this", "do this for a bit" (it's a sort of colloquial "do me a favour"), "can you do this", "could you do this", "could you please do this"? That was an interesting fact about Finnish. Also, in England, it goes "Do this", "Could you please do this", with omission of the "please" considered rather rude :P
- exDM69 13y ago
  You can ask for things politely in Finnish but you can't translate that into English. Instead of adding superfluous words like "please" to the end of the sentence, in Finnish you conjugate the verb of the sentence to a "polite form" to indicate the intent. There's a dozen different forms to use, e.g. "imperative" to indicate that something must be done or "potential" to indicate that something might probably happen.
  - StavrosK 13y ago
    That makes sense, thanks.
canttestthis 13y ago
He's been living in the US for 16 years, so thats not a valid excuse. Also, there's a difference between not saying please and being vulgar. I don't think you can dismiss this as merely a cultural issue.
- exDM69 13y ago
  Sure, but I wanted to remark that it still probably requires him a conscious effort to be polite and to not sound like an asshole to a naturally polite american. Something he often forgets when there's more important business to worry about. The word "please" was an exaggerated example, but if you'd hear two finns politely disagreeing with each other you would probably call it "vulgar" or even think that they hate each other. And besides, it's not exclusively american people he deals with. He probably gets along fine with e.g. Russians who have a culture that is more similar to his own.
  - vadman 13y ago
    A scary percentage of "naturally polite americans" feel entitled to to whatever they want with complete disregard for others' convenience, as long as they politely say "Excuse me".
- coldtea 13y ago
  >He's been living in the US for 16 years, so thats not a valid excuse. Not a valid excuse for what? Who said he has to be "excused"? To quote George Bernard Shaw, who told you the customs of your tribe in the US are natural laws? >* Also, there's a difference between not saying please and being vulgar.* As there is a difference between swearing and being vulgar.
Daiz 13y ago
>the Finnish language does not have an equivalent for the word "please" My first thought was "Don't be silly, of course it does!" but then I realized that it's actually true - we don't have a direct equivalent to "please". Funny how that goes (and I certainly don't use "please" any less than a native speaker would). But we do have plenty of ways to express politeness in its place, so I have to disagree with the "it's sometimes really hard to be courteous and polite for a Finn." There are certainly some Finnish manners, like the tendency to get straight to the point, which one could intepret as rude at times but that obviously wouldn't be the case with Finns communicating with Finns.
- __--__ 13y ago
  You say you're disagreeing, but it sounds like you're agreeing. >"There are certainly some Finnish manners, like the tendency to get straight to the point, which one could intepret as rude at times but that obviously wouldn't be the case with Finns communicating with Finns." The issue is communicating with the rest of the tech community. I can personally attest that West Coast Americans, which comprises a very large percentage of the tech community, are extremely sensitive to anything that could possibly be perceived as non-positive. I'm from the Northeastern US, where directness in speech is valued and isn't construed as being rude. If something sucks, you can say "that sucks" without everybody getting bent out of shape. In SF, I've had several misunderstandings with co-workers where they assumed I wasn't happy about something because, even though I said "that's fantastic!" I didn't say it enthusiastically enough. As silly as it sounds, this has led to real problems for me in the office where people are genuinely hurt and are unlikely to work with me in the future. This is just the long winded way of me saying: for a non-west coast american talking to a west coast american, yes, it's difficult to be polite and courteous to their expected standard.
sampo 13y ago
> the Finnish language does not have an equivalent for the word "please" so it's sometimes really hard to be courteous and polite for a finn. Gee. Even though there is not a separate "politeness word" in Finnish (or in many other languages), this does not mean that Finnish does not have ways to express several levels of politeness. It's only hard to be polite for a Finn who does not know English very well. And it's equally hard for an English-speaking person to be polite in Finnish, if that person doesn't know Finnish very well.

by exDM69 13y ago

StavrosK 13y ago

Hmm, so you can't ask for something politely in Finnish? How do you distinguish?

nraynaud 13y ago
I guess it's by not adding insults at the end?
- StavrosK 13y ago
  Well, then I've been doing it wrong. Fuck you. Damn!
bad_user 13y ago
Don't know Finnish, but words and expressions change meaning by context, not to mention the tone used in spoken language, which often gets lost in written words, that's probably how. It's interesting to think of differences between languages and how that influences culture. For instance in Chinese the verbs themselves do not change to express tense. Expressing tense, for example "I will do that", is made by usage of adverbs or putting the words in the proper context. Asian cultures apparently have a preference towards living in the present, probably more than any other cultures. Think Buddhism.
abrahamsen 13y ago
If the knife is still in the sheath, the question is polite. At least, according to Danish national stereotypes of Finns. http://satwcomic.com/no-invitation http://satwcomic.com/no-invitation
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
asmosoinio 13y ago
Here's an example, somewhat ordered by increasing politeness: Do this => Tee näin Can you do this => Voitko tehdä näin Could you do this => Voisitko tehdä näin Would you kindly do this => Olisitko ystävällinen ja tekisit näin A too literal translation of the last would be: Could you be friendly and do this. "Would you do this, please?" I think would work in English, with approximately same politeness level.
- StavrosK 13y ago
  Ah, that's similar to what we do in Greek. We have a word for "please", but very rarely use it. Instead, it also goes "do this", "do this for a bit" (it's a sort of colloquial "do me a favour"), "can you do this", "could you do this", "could you please do this"? That was an interesting fact about Finnish. Also, in England, it goes "Do this", "Could you please do this", with omission of the "please" considered rather rude :P
exDM69 13y ago
You can ask for things politely in Finnish but you can't translate that into English. Instead of adding superfluous words like "please" to the end of the sentence, in Finnish you conjugate the verb of the sentence to a "polite form" to indicate the intent. There's a dozen different forms to use, e.g. "imperative" to indicate that something must be done or "potential" to indicate that something might probably happen.
- StavrosK 13y ago
  That makes sense, thanks.

canttestthis 13y ago

He's been living in the US for 16 years, so thats not a valid excuse. Also, there's a difference between not saying please and being vulgar. I don't think you can dismiss this as merely a cultural issue.

exDM69 13y ago
Sure, but I wanted to remark that it still probably requires him a conscious effort to be polite and to not sound like an asshole to a naturally polite american. Something he often forgets when there's more important business to worry about. The word "please" was an exaggerated example, but if you'd hear two finns politely disagreeing with each other you would probably call it "vulgar" or even think that they hate each other. And besides, it's not exclusively american people he deals with. He probably gets along fine with e.g. Russians who have a culture that is more similar to his own.
- vadman 13y ago
  A scary percentage of "naturally polite americans" feel entitled to to whatever they want with complete disregard for others' convenience, as long as they politely say "Excuse me".
coldtea 13y ago
>He's been living in the US for 16 years, so thats not a valid excuse. Not a valid excuse for what? Who said he has to be "excused"? To quote George Bernard Shaw, who told you the customs of your tribe in the US are natural laws? >* Also, there's a difference between not saying please and being vulgar.* As there is a difference between swearing and being vulgar.

Daiz 13y ago

>the Finnish language does not have an equivalent for the word "please" My first thought was "Don't be silly, of course it does!" but then I realized that it's actually true - we don't have a direct equivalent to "please". Funny how that goes (and I certainly don't use "please" any less than a native speaker would). But we do have plenty of ways to express politeness in its place, so I have to disagree with the "it's sometimes really hard to be courteous and polite for a Finn." There are certainly some Finnish manners, like the tendency to get straight to the point, which one could intepret as rude at times but that obviously wouldn't be the case with Finns communicating with Finns.

__--__ 13y ago
You say you're disagreeing, but it sounds like you're agreeing. >"There are certainly some Finnish manners, like the tendency to get straight to the point, which one could intepret as rude at times but that obviously wouldn't be the case with Finns communicating with Finns." The issue is communicating with the rest of the tech community. I can personally attest that West Coast Americans, which comprises a very large percentage of the tech community, are extremely sensitive to anything that could possibly be perceived as non-positive. I'm from the Northeastern US, where directness in speech is valued and isn't construed as being rude. If something sucks, you can say "that sucks" without everybody getting bent out of shape. In SF, I've had several misunderstandings with co-workers where they assumed I wasn't happy about something because, even though I said "that's fantastic!" I didn't say it enthusiastically enough. As silly as it sounds, this has led to real problems for me in the office where people are genuinely hurt and are unlikely to work with me in the future. This is just the long winded way of me saying: for a non-west coast american talking to a west coast american, yes, it's difficult to be polite and courteous to their expected standard.

sampo 13y ago

> the Finnish language does not have an equivalent for the word "please" so it's sometimes really hard to be courteous and polite for a finn. Gee. Even though there is not a separate "politeness word" in Finnish (or in many other languages), this does not mean that Finnish does not have ways to express several levels of politeness. It's only hard to be polite for a Finn who does not know English very well. And it's equally hard for an English-speaking person to be polite in Finnish, if that person doesn't know Finnish very well.