4 ms·

tabs are an infinite source of pain and inconsistencies... Everyone must support the space character, it cannot be banned. But a simple commit hook to ban tab

by Peaker 13y ago

tabs are an infinite source of pain and inconsistencies... Everyone must support the space character, it cannot be banned. But a simple commit hook to ban tabs can make indentation and alignment not get messed up over time with many collaborators with default-configured editors (that mess up and use tabs for alignment).

mikeash 13y ago
The inventor of the tab character is on my list of people to assassinate when they're young if I ever get access to a time machine, the other people on the list being Hitler and Charles Douglass. The tab character is a nice idea, but they do not seem to have worked out at all. I'd much rather have syntax-aware indenting in the editor, now that available compiler technology and CPU power make it practical.
- ma2rten 13y ago
  I am just thinking, why not solve this at the scm level, e.g. make a git plugin that will check out the sources indentation independent and only show changes to contents of the file not the indentation. You could even make a plugin that works without collaboration by others: check out the file in your preferred style and transform the changes back into the original style.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    I totally agree. I seem to recall an experimental clang-based git plugin for this floating around. I think it even handled certain differences in naming convention. We'll probably get there in a few more years, as we get comfortable with adding more power to these systems, and taking advantage of compiler technology for things other than generating code.
- GnarfGnarf 13y ago
  I don't understand what's so bad about tabs. With tabs, all you have to do is adjust the settings in your editor, and each programmer gets the indentation (s)he wants: 2, 4, 8, whatever... Also, do you really want to be pressing the space bar twelve times, instead of tabbing three times? I've seen the results of spaces-only: inconsistent, sloppy indentation, 7 or 9 spaces instead of 8, as long as it looks "indented" enough. How, specifically does the tab character "not seem to have worked out at all"? I'm not saying you're wrong for using spaces, just wondering...
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Don't confuse the tab character with the tab key. The key is great. I use it all the time. Of course I don't want to press the space bar twelve times instead of tabbing three times. Of course I don't want sloppy indentation with 7 or 9 spaces instead of 8. Is this an actual problem? I've literally never seen either one in ~25 years of using languages that need indentation. The editor takes care of it. The problem with the tab character is that there's no standard for how wide they're supposed to be, and so everyone uses them differently. Sure, in theory you use one tab character to indicate one level of indentation, and everybody can be happy. In practice, they're often not used that way. People will use two-space tabs with four-space indentation, using two tab characters to indent. People will use eight-space tabs with four-space indentation, using four spaces for one level of indentation, a tab character for two levels, a tab character followed by four spaces for three levels, etc. Some people just blithely mix and match for no particular reason. Put either one into an editor with different tab settings and it explodes into a huge mess.
    - JoeAcchino 13y ago
      Just use tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment.
      - Peaker 13y ago
        While you might do so, anyone you collaborate with will probably not do that. Why? Because almost every code editor in existence comes with that option turned off. And many of them don't even have that option at all! If you expect your codevelopers to manually adjust the alignment to be spaces rather than tabs on each line they edit, when their editor doesn't even distinguish tabs from spaces, oh boy. Tabs just don't work out in a collaborative environment. It is too complicated for a heterogenous editing environment to get correct, so no such environment gets it correct in practice and code ends up a huge mess.

by Peaker 13y ago

mikeash 13y ago

The inventor of the tab character is on my list of people to assassinate when they're young if I ever get access to a time machine, the other people on the list being Hitler and Charles Douglass. The tab character is a nice idea, but they do not seem to have worked out at all. I'd much rather have syntax-aware indenting in the editor, now that available compiler technology and CPU power make it practical.

ma2rten 13y ago
I am just thinking, why not solve this at the scm level, e.g. make a git plugin that will check out the sources indentation independent and only show changes to contents of the file not the indentation. You could even make a plugin that works without collaboration by others: check out the file in your preferred style and transform the changes back into the original style.
- mikeash 13y ago
  I totally agree. I seem to recall an experimental clang-based git plugin for this floating around. I think it even handled certain differences in naming convention. We'll probably get there in a few more years, as we get comfortable with adding more power to these systems, and taking advantage of compiler technology for things other than generating code.
GnarfGnarf 13y ago
I don't understand what's so bad about tabs. With tabs, all you have to do is adjust the settings in your editor, and each programmer gets the indentation (s)he wants: 2, 4, 8, whatever... Also, do you really want to be pressing the space bar twelve times, instead of tabbing three times? I've seen the results of spaces-only: inconsistent, sloppy indentation, 7 or 9 spaces instead of 8, as long as it looks "indented" enough. How, specifically does the tab character "not seem to have worked out at all"? I'm not saying you're wrong for using spaces, just wondering...
- mikeash 13y ago
  Don't confuse the tab character with the tab key. The key is great. I use it all the time. Of course I don't want to press the space bar twelve times instead of tabbing three times. Of course I don't want sloppy indentation with 7 or 9 spaces instead of 8. Is this an actual problem? I've literally never seen either one in ~25 years of using languages that need indentation. The editor takes care of it. The problem with the tab character is that there's no standard for how wide they're supposed to be, and so everyone uses them differently. Sure, in theory you use one tab character to indicate one level of indentation, and everybody can be happy. In practice, they're often not used that way. People will use two-space tabs with four-space indentation, using two tab characters to indent. People will use eight-space tabs with four-space indentation, using four spaces for one level of indentation, a tab character for two levels, a tab character followed by four spaces for three levels, etc. Some people just blithely mix and match for no particular reason. Put either one into an editor with different tab settings and it explodes into a huge mess.
  - JoeAcchino 13y ago
    Just use tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment.
    - Peaker 13y ago
      While you might do so, anyone you collaborate with will probably not do that. Why? Because almost every code editor in existence comes with that option turned off. And many of them don't even have that option at all! If you expect your codevelopers to manually adjust the alignment to be spaces rather than tabs on each line they edit, when their editor doesn't even distinguish tabs from spaces, oh boy. Tabs just don't work out in a collaborative environment. It is too complicated for a heterogenous editing environment to get correct, so no such environment gets it correct in practice and code ends up a huge mess.