5 ms·

I just don't get this obsession with not letting anything like DRM into an open spec for HTML. Copyright owners have every right to use DRM and in many cases th

I just don't get this obsession with not letting anything like DRM into an open spec for HTML. Copyright owners have every right to use DRM and in many cases thats the only way we are ever going to get access that content without monstrosities like Flash. I'm not arguing that DRM works or that we shouldn't be allowed to "remove" it from media we legitimately own (we should be allowed to) but we shouldn't decide that DRM is evil because it isn't. Its the legislation around it that is, DRM is necessary to help prevent capsule mass piracy, we all know it isnt perfect and never can be but if it lets me watch a film or tv show without flash or some other junk then I'm all for there being hooks to enable it in HTML.

phaer 13y ago
Well, in my opinion DRM itself stays evil as long as most (all?) implementations are stopping me from consuming legally obtained content on free systems.
LatvjuAvs 13y ago
You are thief.
ivanca 13y ago
It is evil in proportions never seen before; its blocking access to whats in _your_ computer; under your logic a lot of pdfs shouldn't be allowed to be download and ads shouldn't be allowed to be hidden. I don't know about you but I vote for piracy any day if this is the price for "legal streaming". I really hope Firefox complies but provides a (obviously non-compliant) way of allowing the user to download the content even if it means legal trouble for them (keeping in mind that donations to fight this fight will not be scarce).
Drakim 13y ago
The sort of DRM that is being pushed for HTML is going about it the entirely wrong way. It will almost certainly result in window-only binary blobs, which is directly in opposition to what HTML should be about.
- ivanca 13y ago
  "HTML should be about"; you mean "Internet should be about"; why to stop at DRM? lets create one for text so nobody can copy our news articles; lets create one for pictures so you can't download our precious photos; anyone supporting this is not seeing the gigantic wormhole it will create just for the sake of watching "Arrested Development" in your web browsing devices (BTW, even TV will be more open than Internet because AFAIK they can't restrict what you record from your TV)
  - Drakim 13y ago
    A lot of website has that covered already with super secure JavaScript that prevents right-clicking and text selection.
    - D9u 13y ago
      And one can simply view source to get around that...
      - ddorian43 13y ago
        it was sarcasm, the "super secure" javascript part
      - ivanca 13y ago
        Is actually easier than that; when you use "print" in Chrome an other modern browsers you can select the text and pics there without messing with HTML tags.
- dwild 13y ago
  I guess you are against <embed> then?
kaoD 13y ago
The web doesn't need big media. Big media needs the web.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Criminal offence carrying prison sentence for many countries, probably including the US. Who's going to risk it? EDIT: Here's the global treaty in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention) which links to local laws. EDIT: The famous example case is of DeCSS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS). That's relevant because before DeCSS there wasn't anyway for people running Linux to watch legally bought DVDs.
- pekk 13y ago
  and if there is a single flaw in HTML DRM, then the vendors will move away from it anyway because DRM is a constant arms race. This is a terrible way to build standards
pjscott 13y ago
I don't know if you've looked at the list of stuff on the Pirate Bay recently, but if you have, you know that piracy is rampant and trivial -- and all the DRM in the world hasn't been able to change that.
- reidrac 13y ago
  Yep, that's the point. DRM won't stop piracy, but it will make things harder for legit users (my favourite is: DRM requires _whatever_ and Linux is not supported).
yk 13y ago
IMHO the problem is first of all aesthetically, digital rights minimization does not belong into an open standard. And on the more technical side, the encrypted media extension working draft [1] says itself: This specification does not define a content protection or Digital Rights Management system. Rather, it defines a common API that may be used to discover, select and interact with such systems[...] Translation, it is not content without flash, they are adding another API, to interact with a flash like plugin. So it archives precisely nothing compared to flash, except to grow the attack surface of the browser.
icebraining 13y ago
we shouldn't decide that DRM is evil because it isn't This isn't exactly an argument. DRM is software working against its own users. Why should we embrace it? DRM is necessary to help prevent capsule mass piracy It doesn't, and even if it did, that end doesn't justify the means. if it lets me watch a film or tv show without flash or some other junk then I'm all for [it] I'd rather those who support DRMed media to be inconvenienced; maybe they'll actually stop buying crap and funding the companies that try to push terrible legislation. And if not, at least I don't get DRM in my software.
- rtpg 13y ago
  >DRM is software working against its own users. Why should we embrace it? Steam is DRM. Steam enables me to download my games from all over the place, because their DRM knows that I bought the game at least once. Not always a hinderance
  - Semaphor 13y ago
    Sometimes I feel I'm on repeat here but Steam isn't necessarily DRM. There are several DRM free games on Steam that use it only for distribution.
    - talmand 13y ago
      Can you play these free games on Steam without an account that have terms placed upon it? Sorry, I seriously doubt anyone would ever be able to convince me that Steam is not DRM. If a game that has no third party DRM is purchased on Steam then Steam is required to be running to play that game. It limits you in how you play the game in numerous ways in relation to your account, such as one computer at a time. You cannot buy one copy of a game and give your friend access to your Steam account so the two of you can play multiplayer in that one copy of the game at the same time on the same account. If you break the terms and agreements of Steam and have your account locked then you lose access to all your games, free or purchased. Steam is a form of rights management. Not that I have a problem with Steam as I am currently a happy customer.
judofyr 13y ago
> DRM is necessary to help prevent capsule mass piracy Nope: https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/iPmatxBYuj2 https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/iPmatxBY...

phaer 13y ago

Well, in my opinion DRM itself stays evil as long as most (all?) implementations are stopping me from consuming legally obtained content on free systems.

LatvjuAvs 13y ago

You are thief.

ivanca 13y ago

It is evil in proportions never seen before; its blocking access to whats in _your_ computer; under your logic a lot of pdfs shouldn't be allowed to be download and ads shouldn't be allowed to be hidden. I don't know about you but I vote for piracy any day if this is the price for "legal streaming". I really hope Firefox complies but provides a (obviously non-compliant) way of allowing the user to download the content even if it means legal trouble for them (keeping in mind that donations to fight this fight will not be scarce).

Drakim 13y ago

The sort of DRM that is being pushed for HTML is going about it the entirely wrong way. It will almost certainly result in window-only binary blobs, which is directly in opposition to what HTML should be about.

ivanca 13y ago
"HTML should be about"; you mean "Internet should be about"; why to stop at DRM? lets create one for text so nobody can copy our news articles; lets create one for pictures so you can't download our precious photos; anyone supporting this is not seeing the gigantic wormhole it will create just for the sake of watching "Arrested Development" in your web browsing devices (BTW, even TV will be more open than Internet because AFAIK they can't restrict what you record from your TV)
- Drakim 13y ago
  A lot of website has that covered already with super secure JavaScript that prevents right-clicking and text selection.
  - D9u 13y ago
    And one can simply view source to get around that...
    - ddorian43 13y ago
      it was sarcasm, the "super secure" javascript part
    - ivanca 13y ago
      Is actually easier than that; when you use "print" in Chrome an other modern browsers you can select the text and pics there without messing with HTML tags.
dwild 13y ago
I guess you are against <embed> then?

kaoD 13y ago

The web doesn't need big media. Big media needs the web.

DanBC 13y ago
Criminal offence carrying prison sentence for many countries, probably including the US. Who's going to risk it? EDIT: Here's the global treaty in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention) which links to local laws. EDIT: The famous example case is of DeCSS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS). That's relevant because before DeCSS there wasn't anyway for people running Linux to watch legally bought DVDs.
pekk 13y ago
and if there is a single flaw in HTML DRM, then the vendors will move away from it anyway because DRM is a constant arms race. This is a terrible way to build standards

pjscott 13y ago

I don't know if you've looked at the list of stuff on the Pirate Bay recently, but if you have, you know that piracy is rampant and trivial -- and all the DRM in the world hasn't been able to change that.

reidrac 13y ago
Yep, that's the point. DRM won't stop piracy, but it will make things harder for legit users (my favourite is: DRM requires _whatever_ and Linux is not supported).

yk 13y ago

IMHO the problem is first of all aesthetically, digital rights minimization does not belong into an open standard. And on the more technical side, the encrypted media extension working draft [1] says itself: This specification does not define a content protection or Digital Rights Management system. Rather, it defines a common API that may be used to discover, select and interact with such systems[...] Translation, it is not content without flash, they are adding another API, to interact with a flash like plugin. So it archives precisely nothing compared to flash, except to grow the attack surface of the browser.

icebraining 13y ago

we shouldn't decide that DRM is evil because it isn't This isn't exactly an argument. DRM is software working against its own users. Why should we embrace it? DRM is necessary to help prevent capsule mass piracy It doesn't, and even if it did, that end doesn't justify the means. if it lets me watch a film or tv show without flash or some other junk then I'm all for [it] I'd rather those who support DRMed media to be inconvenienced; maybe they'll actually stop buying crap and funding the companies that try to push terrible legislation. And if not, at least I don't get DRM in my software.

rtpg 13y ago
>DRM is software working against its own users. Why should we embrace it? Steam is DRM. Steam enables me to download my games from all over the place, because their DRM knows that I bought the game at least once. Not always a hinderance
- Semaphor 13y ago
  Sometimes I feel I'm on repeat here but Steam isn't necessarily DRM. There are several DRM free games on Steam that use it only for distribution.
  - talmand 13y ago
    Can you play these free games on Steam without an account that have terms placed upon it? Sorry, I seriously doubt anyone would ever be able to convince me that Steam is not DRM. If a game that has no third party DRM is purchased on Steam then Steam is required to be running to play that game. It limits you in how you play the game in numerous ways in relation to your account, such as one computer at a time. You cannot buy one copy of a game and give your friend access to your Steam account so the two of you can play multiplayer in that one copy of the game at the same time on the same account. If you break the terms and agreements of Steam and have your account locked then you lose access to all your games, free or purchased. Steam is a form of rights management. Not that I have a problem with Steam as I am currently a happy customer.

judofyr 13y ago

> DRM is necessary to help prevent capsule mass piracy Nope: https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/iPmatxBYuj2 https://plus.google.com/107429617152575897589/posts/iPmatxBY...