4 ms·

You can build a startup in the time it takes to thoroughly prepare for these interviews/positions. Willingly subjecting yourself to this rat race is essentiall

by dsowers 13y ago

You can build a startup in the time it takes to thoroughly prepare for these interviews/positions. Willingly subjecting yourself to this rat race is essentially the same thing as stamping yourself as an "ibm man," in the words of Jobs. Who cares if you don't know the intricacies of all the hot algorithms of the day. Spend your time creating actual value for the world, instead of practicing just for the sake of impressing someone.

callmeed 13y ago
This seems silly. If nothing else, following the advice here will help you hire better engineers for your own startup.
- 7Figures2Commas 13y ago
  Really? Most true startups are in need of developers who can actually ship something of value in an efficient manner. The last thing they need is an "engineer" obsessed with algorithms and data structures who turns a practical development task into a computer science challenge.
  - jwoah12 13y ago
    That's a false dichotomy. It is certainly possible to know your algorithms and data structures and still be able to ship code. I can implement quick sort for you, but I know well enough not to actually do it in practice.
    - 7Figures2Commas 13y ago
      That's fair, but when your entire interview process is focused on algorithms and not real-world implementation, you're far more likely to hire the person who can implement quicksort but little of real value. And make no mistake: these engineers exist. The truth of the matter is that most startups aren't Google or Facebook. A good percentage, perhaps the majority, have a CRUD application of some kind that, even if relatively complex or widely used, will realistically never require engineers to reinvent the wheel, let alone even understand the internals of the programming language the application is built on. These startups should absolutely fear hiring an engineer who can't knock out a simple internal dashboard, integrate with a third party API, create a half-decent database schema or customize an instance of [insert popular open source CMS or ecommerce platform] more than they should fear hiring an engineer who can't implement his own quicksort.
  - jtbigwoo 13y ago
    This is applicable for big businesses, too. As a consultant my heart sinks when I open somebody else's code and see a custom-developed sorting library inside a a home-grown MVC framework.
- taude 13y ago
  Disagree unless you're startup is building a library that implements solved computer science algorithms.
orangethirty 13y ago
Are you suggesting that building a startup is merely an exercise in programming? I do agree that one should not participate in the idiotic way programmers are currently being recruited by some companies. But that doesn't mean there aren't good, BS free jobs out there. Jobs that are full-fulling and economically adequate. Not everyone aims to be on the cover of Forbes. Some people just want to program, and go home with the family. Oh, and fish on the weekends. That's a perfectly good life to aim for. Better than what the rest of the world may have.
- dsowers 13y ago
  I'm merely suggesting that most engineers who take the time to study for these interviews are probably good enough to make money on their own somehow. Whether that is a startup, consulting, lifestyle business, or something else... If people just focused on doing a lot of great work, then the jobs will come to them. I hate to see talented people wasting their time preparing for these interviews. The opportunity cost is too high. These current hiring practices are robbing the world of great software–code that will never exist because the time was instead spent on superfluous interview tasks.
  - orangethirty 13y ago
    Yes, I understand your point. And its valid. Though I disagree with the part where people who are good enough to do X might be good enough to start a business, or consult. From my experience that has not been the case. I've met and helped a lot of brilliant programmers along the way, and few of them were capable of running or learning how to run a business. Note that I don't mean that people can't learn, but my experience has shown otherwise. I wish to be wrong.
    - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
      Meh. Running a business is a different thing from software engineering or coding or computer-science. Why should everyone be suitable for a business role?
- kamaal 13y ago
joonix 13y ago
Not everyone has a "monetizeable" startup idea worth pursuing at any given time.
- tachyonbeam 13y ago
  And friends, and contacts, and capital, and a huge amount of free time, and unabashed faith in that one idea.
  - wtracy 13y ago
    And the ability to get health insurance without being under a megacorporation's umbrella.
    - wavesounds 13y ago
      Seriously this, solving the health care problem would free up so many people to start companies and innovate growth, it would be the biggest boom to our economy.
Nursie 13y ago
IBM do some good engineering, generally treat their employees well, have favourable maternity benefits, and employ some great people. Probably not going to be your first choice if what you want is a small, dynamic, startup atmosphere, but as an employer I wouldn't fault them. (yes, ex-employee)
- bitwize 13y ago
  At the time Jobs said that IBM was still very much the "blue suit required" IBM. Their corporate culture has changed a bit in the past few decades.
dyno12345 13y ago
If I could support myself with a three week project instead of spending all day sitting on malodorant trains and an office chair, you'd be damned sure I would do that

by dsowers 13y ago

callmeed 13y ago

This seems silly. If nothing else, following the advice here will help you hire better engineers for your own startup.

7Figures2Commas 13y ago
Really? Most true startups are in need of developers who can actually ship something of value in an efficient manner. The last thing they need is an "engineer" obsessed with algorithms and data structures who turns a practical development task into a computer science challenge.
- jwoah12 13y ago
  That's a false dichotomy. It is certainly possible to know your algorithms and data structures and still be able to ship code. I can implement quick sort for you, but I know well enough not to actually do it in practice.
  - 7Figures2Commas 13y ago
    That's fair, but when your entire interview process is focused on algorithms and not real-world implementation, you're far more likely to hire the person who can implement quicksort but little of real value. And make no mistake: these engineers exist. The truth of the matter is that most startups aren't Google or Facebook. A good percentage, perhaps the majority, have a CRUD application of some kind that, even if relatively complex or widely used, will realistically never require engineers to reinvent the wheel, let alone even understand the internals of the programming language the application is built on. These startups should absolutely fear hiring an engineer who can't knock out a simple internal dashboard, integrate with a third party API, create a half-decent database schema or customize an instance of [insert popular open source CMS or ecommerce platform] more than they should fear hiring an engineer who can't implement his own quicksort.
- jtbigwoo 13y ago
  This is applicable for big businesses, too. As a consultant my heart sinks when I open somebody else's code and see a custom-developed sorting library inside a a home-grown MVC framework.
taude 13y ago
Disagree unless you're startup is building a library that implements solved computer science algorithms.

orangethirty 13y ago

Are you suggesting that building a startup is merely an exercise in programming? I do agree that one should not participate in the idiotic way programmers are currently being recruited by some companies. But that doesn't mean there aren't good, BS free jobs out there. Jobs that are full-fulling and economically adequate. Not everyone aims to be on the cover of Forbes. Some people just want to program, and go home with the family. Oh, and fish on the weekends. That's a perfectly good life to aim for. Better than what the rest of the world may have.

dsowers 13y ago
I'm merely suggesting that most engineers who take the time to study for these interviews are probably good enough to make money on their own somehow. Whether that is a startup, consulting, lifestyle business, or something else... If people just focused on doing a lot of great work, then the jobs will come to them. I hate to see talented people wasting their time preparing for these interviews. The opportunity cost is too high. These current hiring practices are robbing the world of great software–code that will never exist because the time was instead spent on superfluous interview tasks.
- orangethirty 13y ago
  Yes, I understand your point. And its valid. Though I disagree with the part where people who are good enough to do X might be good enough to start a business, or consult. From my experience that has not been the case. I've met and helped a lot of brilliant programmers along the way, and few of them were capable of running or learning how to run a business. Note that I don't mean that people can't learn, but my experience has shown otherwise. I wish to be wrong.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    Meh. Running a business is a different thing from software engineering or coding or computer-science. Why should everyone be suitable for a business role?
kamaal 13y ago

joonix 13y ago

Not everyone has a "monetizeable" startup idea worth pursuing at any given time.

tachyonbeam 13y ago
And friends, and contacts, and capital, and a huge amount of free time, and unabashed faith in that one idea.
- wtracy 13y ago
  And the ability to get health insurance without being under a megacorporation's umbrella.
  - wavesounds 13y ago
    Seriously this, solving the health care problem would free up so many people to start companies and innovate growth, it would be the biggest boom to our economy.

Nursie 13y ago

IBM do some good engineering, generally treat their employees well, have favourable maternity benefits, and employ some great people. Probably not going to be your first choice if what you want is a small, dynamic, startup atmosphere, but as an employer I wouldn't fault them. (yes, ex-employee)

bitwize 13y ago
At the time Jobs said that IBM was still very much the "blue suit required" IBM. Their corporate culture has changed a bit in the past few decades.

dyno12345 13y ago

If I could support myself with a three week project instead of spending all day sitting on malodorant trains and an office chair, you'd be damned sure I would do that