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To me Dart looks like another brick in Google's walled garden. Weakening support for XMPP, Webkit, RSS, and JavaScript. Investment in so-called open technolog

by andyl 13y ago

To me Dart looks like another brick in Google's walled garden. Weakening support for XMPP, Webkit, RSS, and JavaScript. Investment in so-called open technologies like NaCL and DART that are controlled by Google and optimized for Google's platform. Too bad.

mythz 13y ago
Walled garden?? It's the most open language I know, fully OSS'ed with an extended license to include any implicit patents (removing Patent FUD), developed out in the open and accepting 3rd party contributions and inviting feedback to influence language design. Lars Bak also mentioned at Google I/O that they're in the process of trying to get it standardized, not sure what's left to do to make it any more "open" and inviting.
- oinksoft 13y ago
  Let's not pretend that Google's open source products in any way follow an open development process. Do you notice anything in common about the recent committers? http://code.google.com/p/dart/source/list http://code.google.com/p/dart/source/list http://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/source/list http://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/source/list http://code.google.com/p/closure-library/source/list http://code.google.com/p/closure-library/source/list Their development is very much insular. That's not to say it's a poor idea to depend on these products, but they don't compare to projects like Python with formal processes for revisions (PEP) or at least some discussion. It would be nice if Google maintained mirrors on Github and accepted pull requests and such, but I don't see that ever happening.
  - enneff 13y ago
    > Let's not pretend that Google's open source products in any way follow an open development process. You said "product", but you should say "project". If you want to assess the openness of the development process, look at the process itself: https://code.google.com/p/dart/wiki/Contributing https://code.google.com/p/dart/wiki/Contributing https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/reviews https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/?fromgroups#!... If code reviews are happening in the open and there's a process to bring new contributors on board, that's a great start. This early in the game, you can't expect random members of the open source community to start contributing more than a dedicated team at Google. > It would be nice if Google maintained mirrors on Github and accepted pull requests and such, but I don't see that ever happening. Oh? http://github.com/google http://github.com/google https://github.com/dart-lang https://github.com/dart-lang Also, FWIW on the Go project we have more than 300 non-Google contributors and a solid core of dedicated committers. https://code.google.com/p/go/source/list https://code.google.com/p/go/source/list
  - cageface 13y ago
    I really don't understand why people insist that "open" must mean a project is open to every and all random contributions from people outside the project. The source code is there for you to use as you please. If you want your ideas committed to the mainstream you have to persuade the people in charge. I have to wonder what agenda drives people to claim that this is not "in any way" an open development process.
  - xxgreg 13y ago
    > It would be nice if Google maintained mirrors on Github and accepted pull requests and such, but I don't see that ever happening. Actually, external contributors John Evans and Ladislav Thon submitted and landed patches via github. https://chromiumcodereview.appspot.com//10168022 https://chromiumcodereview.appspot.com//10168022 https://chromiumcodereview.appspot.com//10166019 https://chromiumcodereview.appspot.com//10166019 Not all of the code is on github but many libraries are. Web ui is developed via github. See here for a full list: https://github.com/dart-lang/ https://github.com/dart-lang/
  - michaelwww 13y ago
    Actually, I wish Dart were a little less open and had more of a directed focus. Some one like a Linus needs to step in once in awhile and say "you're wasting your time talking about that feature because it's never going to happen."
- ghc 13y ago
  How about putting it in the care of an independent foundation like the Python Software Foundation? Until Dart is wrested from corporate control Python will still be the more open language.
  - kyrra 13y ago
    How would that make it better? Are software foundations some magical thing that makes all software that comes out of them better? Is this hatred toward large companies? Direction coming from a company that has a goal for the language can be a good thing. Java was an amazing language for a number of years until Sun decided to let it languish. Dart is under a very open license that anyone can take any part of the language and use it for their own. The website, spec, vm, analyzer, compiler, and editor are all under open and free licenses. If people get fed up with Google's handling of Dart, they can fork it.
    - ghc 13y ago
      The original claim was that there was no language as open as Dart. I vehemently disagree. Plenty of languages are as open as Dart, and there are several, including Python that are more open. I believe you are underestimating the importance of a language having its own foundation that exists for the sole purpose of ensuring that a language remains vibrant and free. Do you think the PSF would ever make a contributor sign a document before contributing as Google requires for Dart? Also, do you think it's better for a corporation to own the trademark for a programming language's name, or an independent, community run organization? Google owns DART's trademark. I think Java is a great example of why corporate programming languages are a bad thing. Do you remember the first wave of Java adoption? Do you remember how it was adopted in all sorts of places it had no business being because Sun rammed it down everyone's throats through their sales force? The core of Java and the engineering behind the VM are thanks to Gosling, not Sun. I'm not criticizing Sun here, either. That's just how it was done back then. Sun was positively benevolent compared to the likes of Cincom.
spankalee 13y ago
Dart compiles to JavaScript, much like CoffeeScript, Microsoft's TypeScript, Haxe and many others, and they still make the fastest JavaScript VM on the planet.
- michaelwww 13y ago
  Yes and no, An important caveat that Dart as JavaScript runs in it's own isolate and communicates with existing JavaScript libs through ports. This js-interop code is nearly 500k unminified. And you won't be able to minify all your JS (dartJs + other js) into one lib, because dart js doesn't play well with standard tools. One can certainly interop with js libs, but it's not pretty. Dart is not near 1.0 yet, so there is still time for improvement, but this doesn't seem to be a priority. Dart is great, don't get me wrong, and I've been working with it for several months, but I think this point should be made in fairness. You're really going to want to go all in with Dart and leave your custom js libs behind or convert them to Dart. If you have the luxury of working with just Dart code, then you'll be in for a pleasant surprise at how productive you can be and how fast the Dart VM is.
  - xxgreg 13y ago
    Yeah - it would be nice if dart2js supported externs as in the closure compiler. I imagine that will happen at some stage.
    - michaelwww 13y ago
      Yes, I think so too. The question about the need for an isolate has been asked by a Google's own Dart evangelist, so it's on their minds at least. Notice there wasn't much of a response. It's not a hot issue, but I think it will be. https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!topic/compiler-dev/Vl6e_ccC7w4 https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!topic/compi... TypeScript is good that you can transition gradually. I've been using it for the past week and it almost feels like working with Dart with the advantage that's it's just JavaScript. TypeScript interfaces to hundreds of JavaScript libs and jQuery plugins have already been written. I imagine I'll settle on Dart for some things and TypeScript for others and maybe eventually get them working together.

by andyl 13y ago

mythz 13y ago

Walled garden?? It's the most open language I know, fully OSS'ed with an extended license to include any implicit patents (removing Patent FUD), developed out in the open and accepting 3rd party contributions and inviting feedback to influence language design. Lars Bak also mentioned at Google I/O that they're in the process of trying to get it standardized, not sure what's left to do to make it any more "open" and inviting.

oinksoft 13y ago
Let's not pretend that Google's open source products in any way follow an open development process. Do you notice anything in common about the recent committers? http://code.google.com/p/dart/source/list http://code.google.com/p/dart/source/list http://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/source/list http://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/source/list http://code.google.com/p/closure-library/source/list http://code.google.com/p/closure-library/source/list Their development is very much insular. That's not to say it's a poor idea to depend on these products, but they don't compare to projects like Python with formal processes for revisions (PEP) or at least some discussion. It would be nice if Google maintained mirrors on Github and accepted pull requests and such, but I don't see that ever happening.
- enneff 13y ago
  > Let's not pretend that Google's open source products in any way follow an open development process. You said "product", but you should say "project". If you want to assess the openness of the development process, look at the process itself: https://code.google.com/p/dart/wiki/Contributing https://code.google.com/p/dart/wiki/Contributing https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/reviews https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/?fromgroups#!... If code reviews are happening in the open and there's a process to bring new contributors on board, that's a great start. This early in the game, you can't expect random members of the open source community to start contributing more than a dedicated team at Google. > It would be nice if Google maintained mirrors on Github and accepted pull requests and such, but I don't see that ever happening. Oh? http://github.com/google http://github.com/google https://github.com/dart-lang https://github.com/dart-lang Also, FWIW on the Go project we have more than 300 non-Google contributors and a solid core of dedicated committers. https://code.google.com/p/go/source/list https://code.google.com/p/go/source/list
- cageface 13y ago
  I really don't understand why people insist that "open" must mean a project is open to every and all random contributions from people outside the project. The source code is there for you to use as you please. If you want your ideas committed to the mainstream you have to persuade the people in charge. I have to wonder what agenda drives people to claim that this is not "in any way" an open development process.
- xxgreg 13y ago
  > It would be nice if Google maintained mirrors on Github and accepted pull requests and such, but I don't see that ever happening. Actually, external contributors John Evans and Ladislav Thon submitted and landed patches via github. https://chromiumcodereview.appspot.com//10168022 https://chromiumcodereview.appspot.com//10168022 https://chromiumcodereview.appspot.com//10166019 https://chromiumcodereview.appspot.com//10166019 Not all of the code is on github but many libraries are. Web ui is developed via github. See here for a full list: https://github.com/dart-lang/ https://github.com/dart-lang/
- michaelwww 13y ago
  Actually, I wish Dart were a little less open and had more of a directed focus. Some one like a Linus needs to step in once in awhile and say "you're wasting your time talking about that feature because it's never going to happen."
ghc 13y ago
How about putting it in the care of an independent foundation like the Python Software Foundation? Until Dart is wrested from corporate control Python will still be the more open language.
- kyrra 13y ago
  How would that make it better? Are software foundations some magical thing that makes all software that comes out of them better? Is this hatred toward large companies? Direction coming from a company that has a goal for the language can be a good thing. Java was an amazing language for a number of years until Sun decided to let it languish. Dart is under a very open license that anyone can take any part of the language and use it for their own. The website, spec, vm, analyzer, compiler, and editor are all under open and free licenses. If people get fed up with Google's handling of Dart, they can fork it.
  - ghc 13y ago
    The original claim was that there was no language as open as Dart. I vehemently disagree. Plenty of languages are as open as Dart, and there are several, including Python that are more open. I believe you are underestimating the importance of a language having its own foundation that exists for the sole purpose of ensuring that a language remains vibrant and free. Do you think the PSF would ever make a contributor sign a document before contributing as Google requires for Dart? Also, do you think it's better for a corporation to own the trademark for a programming language's name, or an independent, community run organization? Google owns DART's trademark. I think Java is a great example of why corporate programming languages are a bad thing. Do you remember the first wave of Java adoption? Do you remember how it was adopted in all sorts of places it had no business being because Sun rammed it down everyone's throats through their sales force? The core of Java and the engineering behind the VM are thanks to Gosling, not Sun. I'm not criticizing Sun here, either. That's just how it was done back then. Sun was positively benevolent compared to the likes of Cincom.

spankalee 13y ago

Dart compiles to JavaScript, much like CoffeeScript, Microsoft's TypeScript, Haxe and many others, and they still make the fastest JavaScript VM on the planet.

michaelwww 13y ago
Yes and no, An important caveat that Dart as JavaScript runs in it's own isolate and communicates with existing JavaScript libs through ports. This js-interop code is nearly 500k unminified. And you won't be able to minify all your JS (dartJs + other js) into one lib, because dart js doesn't play well with standard tools. One can certainly interop with js libs, but it's not pretty. Dart is not near 1.0 yet, so there is still time for improvement, but this doesn't seem to be a priority. Dart is great, don't get me wrong, and I've been working with it for several months, but I think this point should be made in fairness. You're really going to want to go all in with Dart and leave your custom js libs behind or convert them to Dart. If you have the luxury of working with just Dart code, then you'll be in for a pleasant surprise at how productive you can be and how fast the Dart VM is.
- xxgreg 13y ago
  Yeah - it would be nice if dart2js supported externs as in the closure compiler. I imagine that will happen at some stage.
  - michaelwww 13y ago
    Yes, I think so too. The question about the need for an isolate has been asked by a Google's own Dart evangelist, so it's on their minds at least. Notice there wasn't much of a response. It's not a hot issue, but I think it will be. https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!topic/compiler-dev/Vl6e_ccC7w4 https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!topic/compi... TypeScript is good that you can transition gradually. I've been using it for the past week and it almost feels like working with Dart with the advantage that's it's just JavaScript. TypeScript interfaces to hundreds of JavaScript libs and jQuery plugins have already been written. I imagine I'll settle on Dart for some things and TypeScript for others and maybe eventually get them working together.