3 ms·

Now I know that linux kernel devs are not meant to introduce breaking changes into userland, because of the power of his words And I also know that Linus isn't

Now I know that linux kernel devs are not meant to introduce breaking changes into userland, because of the power of his words And I also know that Linus isn't a person with whom I'll never interact on purpose.

yebyen 13y ago
Sure, if you want, but I can guarantee that without the flame thread, we would not be hearing about this bad patch at all. As a newbie, I'd be seeking out the Rules/FAQ thread, where I'd hopefully have the patience to read all the way down and find that breaking changes are never good. Some things are important enough to flame over. I grew up on IRC, so I have a thick skin to that, and I've been flamed on my fair share of mailing lists too. Know what I learned there? I'm often wrong. To an outsider, a thread where nobody gets flamed is usually pretty inconsequential. Coarse or colorful language makes it stand out more.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  You're actually defending an immature and abusive temper tantrum as a legitimate means of getting attention. We can do better than this.
  - yebyen 13y ago
    I'm not talking about getting (personal) attention. I'm talking about making the rules known to everyone, even those who haven't broken them yet. This is something you cannot do with a private phone call, and when you insist and they don't get it, you only have so many options available to make your point. I honestly haven't read the thread, I'm not defending his particular flame, I'm defending the idea of flames in general. I would assume from all the commentary I've seen though that (the target... Mario?) was defending his breaking change, "it's actually the userland software that's broken" and Linus wanted everyone to know that he was wrong, and there's no defense for breaking changes that affect userland stuff that "used to work." Have you ever joined Exherbo community? I think it's more like what you want. It's anything but User Hostile, but there's a mountain of documentation to read when you arrive, you're expected to have read every word _before_ you come to start asking questions, and when I say 'anything but user hostile', I'm not sure I am using the term correctly. It's not user friendly for noobs. It's almost hostile. They don't really curse at you like Linus, but you have to read, and you have to read lots. I haven't used it in a while, but every time I've gone back after some months, I've found breaking changes or a brand new puzzle to get to first boot, that I couldn't work through without somebody's help. My rating, -1 would not ask for help again, better to live with a broken system that doesn't work until you can know what's wrong for yourself. Anyway enough about Exherbo. Back to Linux, I was compiling kernels when I was 16 years old, I never joined the mailing list, and it was a good experience. Good old, reliable, make menuconfig. I attribute this to Linus, and Alan Cox, whose kernel patches I often tracked. I haven't done that in a while, and I stopped keeping up. It didn't take long googling Alan Cox's name to find the words "castigate" and "quits linux development" in the same article. That makes me sad. So I'll concede that maybe you're right.

yebyen 13y ago

Sure, if you want, but I can guarantee that without the flame thread, we would not be hearing about this bad patch at all. As a newbie, I'd be seeking out the Rules/FAQ thread, where I'd hopefully have the patience to read all the way down and find that breaking changes are never good. Some things are important enough to flame over. I grew up on IRC, so I have a thick skin to that, and I've been flamed on my fair share of mailing lists too. Know what I learned there? I'm often wrong. To an outsider, a thread where nobody gets flamed is usually pretty inconsequential. Coarse or colorful language makes it stand out more.

MartinCron 13y ago
You're actually defending an immature and abusive temper tantrum as a legitimate means of getting attention. We can do better than this.
- yebyen 13y ago
  I'm not talking about getting (personal) attention. I'm talking about making the rules known to everyone, even those who haven't broken them yet. This is something you cannot do with a private phone call, and when you insist and they don't get it, you only have so many options available to make your point. I honestly haven't read the thread, I'm not defending his particular flame, I'm defending the idea of flames in general. I would assume from all the commentary I've seen though that (the target... Mario?) was defending his breaking change, "it's actually the userland software that's broken" and Linus wanted everyone to know that he was wrong, and there's no defense for breaking changes that affect userland stuff that "used to work." Have you ever joined Exherbo community? I think it's more like what you want. It's anything but User Hostile, but there's a mountain of documentation to read when you arrive, you're expected to have read every word _before_ you come to start asking questions, and when I say 'anything but user hostile', I'm not sure I am using the term correctly. It's not user friendly for noobs. It's almost hostile. They don't really curse at you like Linus, but you have to read, and you have to read lots. I haven't used it in a while, but every time I've gone back after some months, I've found breaking changes or a brand new puzzle to get to first boot, that I couldn't work through without somebody's help. My rating, -1 would not ask for help again, better to live with a broken system that doesn't work until you can know what's wrong for yourself. Anyway enough about Exherbo. Back to Linux, I was compiling kernels when I was 16 years old, I never joined the mailing list, and it was a good experience. Good old, reliable, make menuconfig. I attribute this to Linus, and Alan Cox, whose kernel patches I often tracked. I haven't done that in a while, and I stopped keeping up. It didn't take long googling Alan Cox's name to find the words "castigate" and "quits linux development" in the same article. That makes me sad. So I'll concede that maybe you're right.