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This is what keeps me from getting more involved in a lot of online discussions. As it stands, I code mostly as a fun thing I like to do (I work it into my day

This is what keeps me from getting more involved in a lot of online discussions. As it stands, I code mostly as a fun thing I like to do (I work it into my day job where I can). It's something I really enjoy. I've got a shelf full of books and an interest in the esoteric. I'll like casually reading about lambda calculus and taking long walks on the beach, but when I run into something I can't figure out, I have a problem. It's painful to even think about going to some irc channels or forums to ask for advice on something I'm writing, even when it's the most sensible thing to do. I just think about how exhausting it'll probably be to cut through the vitriolic responses and get to some useful information. I'm typically not looking for a dissertation, even. What I'm usually looking for is "Here's what I'm writing. What am I doing wrong, and what resource/book/article could I read to best get a grip on this problem?" I don't want to face the prospect of mental exhaustion for something I do for enjoyment. I think language/framework evangelists usually know about this kind of thing. You never see them say "Yeah, the community is great and if you have any questions head on over to our IRC channel. They're super abrasive in there, but if you really slam your head against them, you'll probably get an answer!"

gosu 13y ago
People online have tended to be more abrasive to total programming novices than to people who have more advanced questions. I don't think it would be that bad for you. But another thing is that, for large and old communities where the developers aren't hanging around, people on IRC aren't necessarily going to be experts who know more than you. Those people have better stuff to do, by virtue of their skill. I personally think that I've picked up very useful "learning skills" because I have my own social reasons for answering technical questions without outside help. So maybe your exhaustion might also be a benefit for this reason.
- doorhammer 13y ago
  Yeah. It's been frustrating at times, but it is satisfying to figure something out "alone" (clearly I only figure it out because someone else wrote a book about it). I can get away with it because I don't have any deadlines or anything like that, really. I can just hammer away until I figure it out. It's definitely been useful, though. And you're right; learning skills are still skills for sure.
fredsanford 13y ago
Take this for what it's worth, maybe nothing... A fair number of the people in these communities that offer help are doing so to help those of us who have questions. They can be annoying, abrasive and downright rude. If you are polite and persist most of the time you will get your answer. I went through this in the late '80s on the C/C++ forums on FIDOnet and RIME/RelayNet. I managed to persist (and get pissed off a number of times) and get most of my answers. To this day I see people from FIDOnet and RIME/RelayNet still answering questions on web forums, StackOverflow etc. Jerry Coffin is one of them and the man is a saint. Bob Stout of Snippets fame has been around forever as well. The advice I read from Joseph Carnage on RIME was some of the most valuable ever and has a lot to do with how well I turned out as a developer. I guess what I'm getting to here is to grow some thicker skin and try not to take it all so personally. A fair number of the guys answering the questions have seen the same questions a million times and gone to the trouble to write the FAQs for C and C++ and are presumably tired of answering the same old questions. Put yourself in their place and see if your perspective changes.
- doorhammer 13y ago
  I don't think your response is worth nothing, and I do understand a lot of the reasons why people would low on patience. I also don't think it's always unwarranted to be terse about things. People ask the same questions and people ask silly questions, or they ask questions that lead someone to believe they haven't even tried to find a response, and that they're just trying to be spoon fed. I think those are all totally valid complaints. I don't think anyone with a job worth doing gets out of asking questions they think are absurd to have ever been asked in the first place. For me, I don't think taking something personally is what is exhausting. I have my own propensity for verbal sparring and for trying to find the psychological upper hand. Once I get into it, I don't care about conversation or communication, just about feeling like I was the most strategic combatant. It turns into drawn out verbal warfare, and it's draining for me to resist the urge to get into those fights when I get a condescending response. I realize that places most (or a lot) of the blame on me, for the exhaustion, but there it is. It helps a lot that there are places like Stack Overflow and that the web is just so damned big and accessible, these days. I can almost always find an answer on my own, so it's not usually worth investing in a forum to get answers. The downside is I miss out on community and getting to know prolific figures or interacting with other programmers as much as I could, and that's definitely my loss. I also miss out on the large number of generally decent folk, which sucks, and it's a big reason I've tried to make a few more comments on HN that I used to, in areas where I think I have something to say. Most of the time it's worth trying to open up the line of communication. I just try to balance risk versus reward. Basically, I think I'm pretty capable of tolerating the negative responses that can pop up, but is it worth enduring them for what I would get out of it? In my current context, I'm not sure.

gosu 13y ago

People online have tended to be more abrasive to total programming novices than to people who have more advanced questions. I don't think it would be that bad for you. But another thing is that, for large and old communities where the developers aren't hanging around, people on IRC aren't necessarily going to be experts who know more than you. Those people have better stuff to do, by virtue of their skill. I personally think that I've picked up very useful "learning skills" because I have my own social reasons for answering technical questions without outside help. So maybe your exhaustion might also be a benefit for this reason.

doorhammer 13y ago
Yeah. It's been frustrating at times, but it is satisfying to figure something out "alone" (clearly I only figure it out because someone else wrote a book about it). I can get away with it because I don't have any deadlines or anything like that, really. I can just hammer away until I figure it out. It's definitely been useful, though. And you're right; learning skills are still skills for sure.

fredsanford 13y ago

Take this for what it's worth, maybe nothing... A fair number of the people in these communities that offer help are doing so to help those of us who have questions. They can be annoying, abrasive and downright rude. If you are polite and persist most of the time you will get your answer. I went through this in the late '80s on the C/C++ forums on FIDOnet and RIME/RelayNet. I managed to persist (and get pissed off a number of times) and get most of my answers. To this day I see people from FIDOnet and RIME/RelayNet still answering questions on web forums, StackOverflow etc. Jerry Coffin is one of them and the man is a saint. Bob Stout of Snippets fame has been around forever as well. The advice I read from Joseph Carnage on RIME was some of the most valuable ever and has a lot to do with how well I turned out as a developer. I guess what I'm getting to here is to grow some thicker skin and try not to take it all so personally. A fair number of the guys answering the questions have seen the same questions a million times and gone to the trouble to write the FAQs for C and C++ and are presumably tired of answering the same old questions. Put yourself in their place and see if your perspective changes.

doorhammer 13y ago
I don't think your response is worth nothing, and I do understand a lot of the reasons why people would low on patience. I also don't think it's always unwarranted to be terse about things. People ask the same questions and people ask silly questions, or they ask questions that lead someone to believe they haven't even tried to find a response, and that they're just trying to be spoon fed. I think those are all totally valid complaints. I don't think anyone with a job worth doing gets out of asking questions they think are absurd to have ever been asked in the first place. For me, I don't think taking something personally is what is exhausting. I have my own propensity for verbal sparring and for trying to find the psychological upper hand. Once I get into it, I don't care about conversation or communication, just about feeling like I was the most strategic combatant. It turns into drawn out verbal warfare, and it's draining for me to resist the urge to get into those fights when I get a condescending response. I realize that places most (or a lot) of the blame on me, for the exhaustion, but there it is. It helps a lot that there are places like Stack Overflow and that the web is just so damned big and accessible, these days. I can almost always find an answer on my own, so it's not usually worth investing in a forum to get answers. The downside is I miss out on community and getting to know prolific figures or interacting with other programmers as much as I could, and that's definitely my loss. I also miss out on the large number of generally decent folk, which sucks, and it's a big reason I've tried to make a few more comments on HN that I used to, in areas where I think I have something to say. Most of the time it's worth trying to open up the line of communication. I just try to balance risk versus reward. Basically, I think I'm pretty capable of tolerating the negative responses that can pop up, but is it worth enduring them for what I would get out of it? In my current context, I'm not sure.