6 ms·

Google engineers: We're trying to fix Android fragmentation

35 points by tanglesome 13y ago

cpeterso 13y ago
Google's "Play Services" library is a long-needed end run around slow carrier updates for delivering new APIs, but will it be available on non-"Google Experience" Android devices that aren't allowed to pre-install Google apps or the Google Play Store itself? Or is the Play Services library a way for Google to lock Android app developers into Google's version of Android?
- jmillikin 13y ago
  "Google Experience" means that the device is running regular Android, without some weird TouchWiz or Sense skin. I'm certain the new services will be available for non-GE devices because those are the ones that are "fragmented". It seems doubtful that they'll be available on devices that don't have Google Play installed, because Play Services is part of Google Play. Apps that require Google Play (e.g. for in-app purchases or license validation) already need to find some other option if they want to run on devices running stripped-down Android distributions. I don't think it's fair to characterize this as lock-in, because apps are free to use some other mechanism to implement provided features (or just disable them if not available).
  - bryanlarsen 13y ago
    You're describing what Google calls the "Nexus Experience". The parent was describing "Google Certified" android devices, AKA non-AOSP devices.
    - jmillikin 13y ago
      "Nexus" is a device brand. "Google Experience" is a description of a software configuration. All Nexus phones released so far have been "Google Experience" devices, but there are also some non-Nexus devices marketed as "Google Experience", such as the Motorola Xoom.
      - bryanlarsen 13y ago
        Ahh, you're right, I'd forgotten about the Xoom. "Google Experience" is the old name, "Nexus Experience" is the new name they're using with the S4.
yoster 13y ago
With Samsung trying to create their own ecosystem, you would think Google would be trying to make a Galaxy killer.
obviouslygreen 13y ago
Device makers and the wireless operators that sell smartphones and tablets to consumers haven't been able to keep up. While you could call this trivially true if you assume that this is a goal of theirs and they are actually trying, I think it misses the reality that operators don't care, at all, whether your device is up to date in terms of the OS once you've signed on for your plan. It would be a very interesting challenge to attempt an OS that could be kept up to date in terms of base functionality while still allowing carrier bastardization at a different layer. However, this is a goal that, it seems to me, would have best been addressed ten years ago.
- kbenson 13y ago
  I think it misses the reality that operators don't care, at all, whether your device is up to date in terms of the OS once you've signed on for your plan I think it's more likely that they care, but in complex and conflicting ways that aren't always obvious to the general consumer. When you first buy the device (if it's close to launch), they probably care because your opinions inform others quite a bit, so hey want to make you happy and generate positive feedback. Close to the launch of a new flagship device, they probably would prefer to delay updates for other/older models, to help adoption and uptake of the new model. Throughout the entire time, they care enough to not generate too much negative feedback about their products such that it affects the marketplace.
  - ianlevesque 13y ago
    Either way its evidence that rolling out OS upgrades to hardware shouldn't be left up to them.
- hbharadwaj 13y ago
  Isn't that Microsoft is attempting with Windows Phone? The differentiation is based on applications while the base functionality remains the same.
salimmadjd 13y ago
I think at this point it's too late. The genie is out! Fragmentation is a bit like entropy, it's hard to put it back in order. The main issue is, the largest Android hardware vendor has no inherent interest to follow Google. Samsung sees itself as the next Apple and they want to tackle both hardware/software differentiation to maintaing market dominance. Unless google wants to follow Samsung, the fragmentation will be around.
- cpeterso 13y ago
  Samsung's dominance is a good thing for Google's "Play Services" strategy to reduce fragmentation if Samsung continues to ship "Google Experience" devices that include Google's Play Store. AFAIK, Samsung would not be able to block apps from pulling down the Play Store library dependency to older devices.
- untog 13y ago
  I don't think it's ever too late. Sure, it's sub-optimal, a lot of people are still on 2.x, but 4.x has finally overtaken: http://www.techspot.com/news/51862-android-4x-installations-overtake-23-gingerbread-after-17-months.html http://www.techspot.com/news/51862-android-4x-installations-... Assuming Android will be around for many years, they can fix the vast majority if this issue.
  - krschultz 13y ago
    That said, Google changed the way those stats are recorded. It used to be based on all phones that connect to their servers. Now it is based on logins to the Google Play store "because they are more active". That's why the line graphs of version share over time are no longer on the dashboard, because it would show a big discontinuity where they changed their methodology. That said, just like on the web it's all about what your users have. My app has roughly 25% Gingerbread and 75% Ice Cream Sandwich or newer. I hope that holds, but there really is no way to stop building for Gingerbread even with the majority on the newer versions.
- coldcode 13y ago
  Perhaps Samsung will do the ultimate stupid and leave Android behind. This would make Google's job much easier.
apendleton 13y ago
This appears to actually be the chat in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5OOJDIrYls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5OOJDIrYls
threeseed 13y ago
The other thing is that there is an additional type of fragmentation happening on the Android platform: users. Samsung's aggressive advertising has brought a huge class of users who are less technical but also more likely to buy apps as opposed to pirate them i.e. more valuable. Hence as a developer it would be wise to just test my apps on Samsung devices and not worry about anything else. Likewise if Samsung were to have custom APIs I would be forced to not instantly dismiss them.
spoiledtechie 13y ago
Having a Windows Phone, 8.0. Updates come in all the time from the Marketplace. Which in turn updates every thing on the phone. MSoft designed it so that every function is an app. No need to update the entire os, but rather just the app. Ive seen updates for Utils and diagnosis tools come in as well as your regular app. Maybe its something the Android Team needs to look into. Even though their is carrier bastardization, it still allows for real partial updates of internal Android Apps.
- runjake 13y ago
  > No need to update the entire os You're wrong. http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/how-to/wp8/basics/windows-phone-8-update-history http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/how-to/wp8/basics/windows-... > Maybe its something the Android Team needs to look into. How Windows Phone updates actually work is exactly the same as how Android updates work: the OS is updated, and these days, the apps (even Google's) are broken out into separate updates. Google was doing this before Microsoft, so Google would not need to learn anything from Microsoft, in this regard.
  - spoiledtechie 13y ago
    Before you attack me, maybe you should try owning a Windows Phone. I am speaking from experience. You are just speaking from things you found on the internet.
    - runjake 13y ago
      I wasn't attacking you, I was saying you were wrong -- and you were wrong. And I actually do own two Windows Phones (one is a developer "HTC Mazaa" unit given to me by Microsoft after being one of the winners of a Windows Phone development competition, and the other is a WP8 Lumia) and I develop for Windows Phone. Has Microsoft given you a developer phone lately? Seriously though, don't presume to know my experience level.
      - spoiledtechie 13y ago
Tichy 13y ago
Maybe there is a reason for not letting developers talk to the press. This is not good marketing...
- myko 13y ago
  This is developers talking to developers, at Google IO.
vy8vWJlco 13y ago
I must have missed the memo about fragmentation being bad. However, if the Android folks really do want to zip the stack up (from the kernel to UI) all the way to a common interface, for example, they are going to have to start with the kernel in a way carriers seem unlikely to get behind - namely getting bleeding edge drivers into the mainline tree in a coordinated way that would make desktop ARM distributions on phones much more likely. If not, separate houses will just go on keeping their forks alive and maintaining their increasingly separate interfaces, since the forks start lower. At the moment, that doesn't seem to be what is meant by fixing fragmentation however. IMHO, the Android UI should just be a packaged environment like Unity or Gnome or KDE. It seems unlikely that we'll see a Debian package for Android any time soon though, but that would be a move in the right direction.

35 points by tanglesome 13y ago

Google's "Play Services" library is a long-needed end run around slow carrier updates for delivering new APIs, but will it be available on non-"Google Experience" Android devices that aren't allowed to pre-install Google apps or the Google Play Store itself? Or is the Play Services library a way for Google to lock Android app developers into Google's version of Android?

jmillikin 13y ago
"Google Experience" means that the device is running regular Android, without some weird TouchWiz or Sense skin. I'm certain the new services will be available for non-GE devices because those are the ones that are "fragmented". It seems doubtful that they'll be available on devices that don't have Google Play installed, because Play Services is part of Google Play. Apps that require Google Play (e.g. for in-app purchases or license validation) already need to find some other option if they want to run on devices running stripped-down Android distributions. I don't think it's fair to characterize this as lock-in, because apps are free to use some other mechanism to implement provided features (or just disable them if not available).
- bryanlarsen 13y ago
  You're describing what Google calls the "Nexus Experience". The parent was describing "Google Certified" android devices, AKA non-AOSP devices.
  - jmillikin 13y ago
    "Nexus" is a device brand. "Google Experience" is a description of a software configuration. All Nexus phones released so far have been "Google Experience" devices, but there are also some non-Nexus devices marketed as "Google Experience", such as the Motorola Xoom.
    - bryanlarsen 13y ago
      Ahh, you're right, I'd forgotten about the Xoom. "Google Experience" is the old name, "Nexus Experience" is the new name they're using with the S4.

yoster 13y ago

With Samsung trying to create their own ecosystem, you would think Google would be trying to make a Galaxy killer.

obviouslygreen 13y ago

Device makers and the wireless operators that sell smartphones and tablets to consumers haven't been able to keep up. While you could call this trivially true if you assume that this is a goal of theirs and they are actually trying, I think it misses the reality that operators don't care, at all, whether your device is up to date in terms of the OS once you've signed on for your plan. It would be a very interesting challenge to attempt an OS that could be kept up to date in terms of base functionality while still allowing carrier bastardization at a different layer. However, this is a goal that, it seems to me, would have best been addressed ten years ago.

kbenson 13y ago
I think it misses the reality that operators don't care, at all, whether your device is up to date in terms of the OS once you've signed on for your plan I think it's more likely that they care, but in complex and conflicting ways that aren't always obvious to the general consumer. When you first buy the device (if it's close to launch), they probably care because your opinions inform others quite a bit, so hey want to make you happy and generate positive feedback. Close to the launch of a new flagship device, they probably would prefer to delay updates for other/older models, to help adoption and uptake of the new model. Throughout the entire time, they care enough to not generate too much negative feedback about their products such that it affects the marketplace.
- ianlevesque 13y ago
  Either way its evidence that rolling out OS upgrades to hardware shouldn't be left up to them.
hbharadwaj 13y ago
Isn't that Microsoft is attempting with Windows Phone? The differentiation is based on applications while the base functionality remains the same.

salimmadjd 13y ago

I think at this point it's too late. The genie is out! Fragmentation is a bit like entropy, it's hard to put it back in order. The main issue is, the largest Android hardware vendor has no inherent interest to follow Google. Samsung sees itself as the next Apple and they want to tackle both hardware/software differentiation to maintaing market dominance. Unless google wants to follow Samsung, the fragmentation will be around.

cpeterso 13y ago
Samsung's dominance is a good thing for Google's "Play Services" strategy to reduce fragmentation if Samsung continues to ship "Google Experience" devices that include Google's Play Store. AFAIK, Samsung would not be able to block apps from pulling down the Play Store library dependency to older devices.
untog 13y ago
I don't think it's ever too late. Sure, it's sub-optimal, a lot of people are still on 2.x, but 4.x has finally overtaken: http://www.techspot.com/news/51862-android-4x-installations-overtake-23-gingerbread-after-17-months.html http://www.techspot.com/news/51862-android-4x-installations-... Assuming Android will be around for many years, they can fix the vast majority if this issue.
- krschultz 13y ago
  That said, Google changed the way those stats are recorded. It used to be based on all phones that connect to their servers. Now it is based on logins to the Google Play store "because they are more active". That's why the line graphs of version share over time are no longer on the dashboard, because it would show a big discontinuity where they changed their methodology. That said, just like on the web it's all about what your users have. My app has roughly 25% Gingerbread and 75% Ice Cream Sandwich or newer. I hope that holds, but there really is no way to stop building for Gingerbread even with the majority on the newer versions.
coldcode 13y ago
Perhaps Samsung will do the ultimate stupid and leave Android behind. This would make Google's job much easier.

apendleton 13y ago

This appears to actually be the chat in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5OOJDIrYls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5OOJDIrYls

threeseed 13y ago

The other thing is that there is an additional type of fragmentation happening on the Android platform: users. Samsung's aggressive advertising has brought a huge class of users who are less technical but also more likely to buy apps as opposed to pirate them i.e. more valuable. Hence as a developer it would be wise to just test my apps on Samsung devices and not worry about anything else. Likewise if Samsung were to have custom APIs I would be forced to not instantly dismiss them.

spoiledtechie 13y ago

Having a Windows Phone, 8.0. Updates come in all the time from the Marketplace. Which in turn updates every thing on the phone. MSoft designed it so that every function is an app. No need to update the entire os, but rather just the app. Ive seen updates for Utils and diagnosis tools come in as well as your regular app. Maybe its something the Android Team needs to look into. Even though their is carrier bastardization, it still allows for real partial updates of internal Android Apps.

runjake 13y ago
> No need to update the entire os You're wrong. http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/how-to/wp8/basics/windows-phone-8-update-history http://www.windowsphone.com/en-US/how-to/wp8/basics/windows-... > Maybe its something the Android Team needs to look into. How Windows Phone updates actually work is exactly the same as how Android updates work: the OS is updated, and these days, the apps (even Google's) are broken out into separate updates. Google was doing this before Microsoft, so Google would not need to learn anything from Microsoft, in this regard.
- spoiledtechie 13y ago
  Before you attack me, maybe you should try owning a Windows Phone. I am speaking from experience. You are just speaking from things you found on the internet.
  - runjake 13y ago
    I wasn't attacking you, I was saying you were wrong -- and you were wrong. And I actually do own two Windows Phones (one is a developer "HTC Mazaa" unit given to me by Microsoft after being one of the winners of a Windows Phone development competition, and the other is a WP8 Lumia) and I develop for Windows Phone. Has Microsoft given you a developer phone lately? Seriously though, don't presume to know my experience level.
    - spoiledtechie 13y ago

Tichy 13y ago

Maybe there is a reason for not letting developers talk to the press. This is not good marketing...

myko 13y ago
This is developers talking to developers, at Google IO.

vy8vWJlco 13y ago

I must have missed the memo about fragmentation being bad. However, if the Android folks really do want to zip the stack up (from the kernel to UI) all the way to a common interface, for example, they are going to have to start with the kernel in a way carriers seem unlikely to get behind - namely getting bleeding edge drivers into the mainline tree in a coordinated way that would make desktop ARM distributions on phones much more likely. If not, separate houses will just go on keeping their forks alive and maintaining their increasingly separate interfaces, since the forks start lower. At the moment, that doesn't seem to be what is meant by fixing fragmentation however. IMHO, the Android UI should just be a packaged environment like Unity or Gnome or KDE. It seems unlikely that we'll see a Debian package for Android any time soon though, but that would be a move in the right direction.