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The sooner people understand that anti-social behaviour is about community and not about rights the better, but I still see people confusing the two. Yes you'v

by moomin 13y ago

The sooner people understand that anti-social behaviour is about community and not about rights the better, but I still see people confusing the two. Yes you've got a right to be rude, you've also got a right to blather on for two hours about Dragonball Z. Both behaviours will leave adults concluding that you're not capable of mature discussion. And if you and your mates establish a norm of anti-social behaviour, you will neatly exclude large portions of the population including most women, most children and most men over 30. If, on the other hand, you want an intelligent conversation about tech and startups with the largest number of intelligent people, I suggest that we should all talk a bit more like Paul Graham and a bit less like a 14-year old playing Call of Duty (or, for that matter, Linus Torvalds)

lifeisstillgood 13y ago
Thank you for writing your point in a manner the reinforces your point. I have given your point a point.
gwgarry 13y ago
> The sooner people understand that anti-social behaviour is about community and not about rights the better "Anti-social" behavior according to whom and to what extent and for what purpose? For the purpose of feminizing men so that they are more passive and they fit better into your ideals of who people should be? So to fit men who want to be themselves into your little cult of civility? > I still see people confusing the two. There is no confusion. People want to be themselves and want a culture to cater to that. Instead you want a culture that caters to your needs. Which is fine, but that is no global definition of what that is and how to implement it. The idea that everyone and every community should conform to these feminizing norms is highly flawed. And is totally arbitrary. > Both behaviours will leave adults concluding Massive generalization. Adults, eh? Fuck you for calling any ideals that don't conform to your to be childish. > mates establish a norm of anti-social behaviour, you will neatly exclude large portions of the population including most women, most children and most men over 30. The point is to appeal to your group, not to appeal to all of society. That's what religions attempt to do, and fail all the time doing. There are no ideals that fit every community or even all of society. To attempt to create such ideals is essentially social engineering. It's the purview of totalitarians. > intelligent conversation about tech and startups Fuck you for calling people who don't conform to your norms unintelligent.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- scott_s 13y ago
  You're new here, so you may think people are downvoting you for what you're saying. They're really downvoting you for how you say it. We try to put a premium on being civil.
  - SCdF 13y ago
    You're right (and it's one of the reasons I enjoy reading HN) but it's kind of ironic in this context, isn't it? We're all so good at not telling people to STFU and what-not, but we still have enumerable troubles with entire discussions not being derailed into hate-fests, albeit with some uncharacteristically (for an internet discussion) polite language. Something to think about.
    - gosu 13y ago
      For what it's worth, your post made me realize how much of a polite hater I was being in my post above.
    - scott_s 13y ago
      I am thinking about it. Not sure what to do about it, though.
- gosu 13y ago
  You're right. Everything is relative and you can do whatever you want, exactly as the poster whom you've responded to but completely ignored pointed out. The point is that he's calling on people to either match his values, or else risk losing his favor and those of the communities he mentioned. You may not care much, but the evidence of the downvotes on your comment suggests that the HN community agrees with him and not you. So you may find that your message of exclusion ironically helps to effect your own exclusion from a community that you apparently care about, since you're posting here. >feminizing men The thing with edgy, weird opinions like that is that it's unlikely that you hold them because you're wiser than prevailing wisdom. Apparently, Real Men antagonise strangers over the internet.
CrazedGeek 13y ago
I agree completely. (I accidentally downvoted you, sorry.)
Ntrails 13y ago
Young men are the only group to whom you can arbitrarily assign a negative stereotype without encountering any backlash it seems. In my opinion similarly aged female social groups are often just as excluding of people - though not, perhaps, in the same way. I have no problem with the idea that in this community, Paul Graham is the best role model for communication. But let's not pretend that the place is flawed purely because of it's demographic.
- moomin 13y ago
  You make a very good point. There are other groups e.g. bankers, but they tend to be privileged groups. This point was made to me quite memorably this Christmas. A local group was collecting presents for orphans. I brouyght in two boxes for kids the same age as my daughter. In the whole community, 14-16 year old boys got one box. Next year, I plan to get something for them (if only I can figure out what a 14-16 year old would like that doesn't require power and will fit in a shoebox). The 14-year old CoD player is, however, not just a stereotype, but pretty much the archetype of what happens in online communities that don't self-police behaviour. The standard of discourse engages in a race to the bottom, where shouting beats listening. This isn't necessary, even in Shooters: I used to play Unreal in an online community back in the day, and the chat was friendly ("played", or "well played" was one of the standard things you said when you got shot). Even the taunts were actually funny (often Monkey Island references). However, that's a long time ago: I don't find online shooters a fun place to hang out anymore.

by moomin 13y ago

lifeisstillgood 13y ago

Thank you for writing your point in a manner the reinforces your point. I have given your point a point.

gwgarry 13y ago

> The sooner people understand that anti-social behaviour is about community and not about rights the better "Anti-social" behavior according to whom and to what extent and for what purpose? For the purpose of feminizing men so that they are more passive and they fit better into your ideals of who people should be? So to fit men who want to be themselves into your little cult of civility? > I still see people confusing the two. There is no confusion. People want to be themselves and want a culture to cater to that. Instead you want a culture that caters to your needs. Which is fine, but that is no global definition of what that is and how to implement it. The idea that everyone and every community should conform to these feminizing norms is highly flawed. And is totally arbitrary. > Both behaviours will leave adults concluding Massive generalization. Adults, eh? Fuck you for calling any ideals that don't conform to your to be childish. > mates establish a norm of anti-social behaviour, you will neatly exclude large portions of the population including most women, most children and most men over 30. The point is to appeal to your group, not to appeal to all of society. That's what religions attempt to do, and fail all the time doing. There are no ideals that fit every community or even all of society. To attempt to create such ideals is essentially social engineering. It's the purview of totalitarians. > intelligent conversation about tech and startups Fuck you for calling people who don't conform to your norms unintelligent.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
scott_s 13y ago
You're new here, so you may think people are downvoting you for what you're saying. They're really downvoting you for how you say it. We try to put a premium on being civil.
- SCdF 13y ago
  You're right (and it's one of the reasons I enjoy reading HN) but it's kind of ironic in this context, isn't it? We're all so good at not telling people to STFU and what-not, but we still have enumerable troubles with entire discussions not being derailed into hate-fests, albeit with some uncharacteristically (for an internet discussion) polite language. Something to think about.
  - gosu 13y ago
    For what it's worth, your post made me realize how much of a polite hater I was being in my post above.
  - scott_s 13y ago
    I am thinking about it. Not sure what to do about it, though.
gosu 13y ago
You're right. Everything is relative and you can do whatever you want, exactly as the poster whom you've responded to but completely ignored pointed out. The point is that he's calling on people to either match his values, or else risk losing his favor and those of the communities he mentioned. You may not care much, but the evidence of the downvotes on your comment suggests that the HN community agrees with him and not you. So you may find that your message of exclusion ironically helps to effect your own exclusion from a community that you apparently care about, since you're posting here. >feminizing men The thing with edgy, weird opinions like that is that it's unlikely that you hold them because you're wiser than prevailing wisdom. Apparently, Real Men antagonise strangers over the internet.

CrazedGeek 13y ago

I agree completely. (I accidentally downvoted you, sorry.)

Ntrails 13y ago

Young men are the only group to whom you can arbitrarily assign a negative stereotype without encountering any backlash it seems. In my opinion similarly aged female social groups are often just as excluding of people - though not, perhaps, in the same way. I have no problem with the idea that in this community, Paul Graham is the best role model for communication. But let's not pretend that the place is flawed purely because of it's demographic.

moomin 13y ago
You make a very good point. There are other groups e.g. bankers, but they tend to be privileged groups. This point was made to me quite memorably this Christmas. A local group was collecting presents for orphans. I brouyght in two boxes for kids the same age as my daughter. In the whole community, 14-16 year old boys got one box. Next year, I plan to get something for them (if only I can figure out what a 14-16 year old would like that doesn't require power and will fit in a shoebox). The 14-year old CoD player is, however, not just a stereotype, but pretty much the archetype of what happens in online communities that don't self-police behaviour. The standard of discourse engages in a race to the bottom, where shouting beats listening. This isn't necessary, even in Shooters: I used to play Unreal in an online community back in the day, and the chat was friendly ("played", or "well played" was one of the standard things you said when you got shot). Even the taunts were actually funny (often Monkey Island references). However, that's a long time ago: I don't find online shooters a fun place to hang out anymore.