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The difference is consent. Now, of course, that sparks off a question about whether submitting your post or your startup to HN is de facto consenting to be ver

The difference is consent. Now, of course, that sparks off a question about whether submitting your post or your startup to HN is de facto consenting to be verbally abused. But I think that's a pretty useful conversation to have.

Nursie 13y ago
I would say no. I'd say especially no if someone else submits it! I can't load up the article again (squid error) but IIRC the guy was posted to HN by someone else,d then received a bunch of abuse on his site and via email etc. Perhaps better to keep the verbal abuse here rather than there? When I first started using HN, only a little over a year ago really, it did seem different to now. A lot less criticism (yay, no mudslinging or fanboi fights!) and a lot more bootstrappy startup speak (though that can get just as annoying). Oh well.
bennyg 13y ago
Whenever you put your own work in the world, then expect criticism. It doesn't mean verbal abuse should be the norm - it just means that criticism is most likely gonna' happen. HN isn't the only online community - and it's most likely not your target market for a startup. So pushing a product that's not intended for HN users as a target demographic, and bleeding over every critique here is the wrong move. If anything, you'll understand your tech stack and scalability concerns by doing a Show HN here. It shouldn't be your go-to source for pushing your startup. I like to think of HN as one big subset of focus group users. Get another subset of people with a similar psychographic/demographic trait and you're likely to face just as much criticism, just of a different bent than you would receive here.
- thenomad 13y ago
  Generally, I agree with everything you say here. If you're asking for feedback, then you will get feedback, and some of it will be critical. I think you'd agree that feedback does not equal verbal abuse. So, to go back to the original question, do you feel that by asking for feedback you're consenting to be verbally abused, or do you feel that's not the case?
  - bennyg 13y ago
    I think verbal abuse is a subjective x on the number line of criticism and said feedback. Some people can handle getting called shit, and some people think it's the end of the world. To answer your question, no I don't think when putting something out in the world you're consenting to verbal abuse. I think you're consenting to unmitigated feedback (if it's an online forum, perhaps), and sometimes that feedback will come in the form of verbal abuse - whether that's someone's right or not to give said feedback, I can't say.
orokusaki 13y ago
The Internet is not yours. If you put content on the PUBLIC Internet, consider yourself to be consenting to any abuse the Internet as a whole wishes to dish out in return.
- thenomad 13y ago
  Really? So if a person decides to post a picture of themselves on their blog, they're consenting to having that picture photomanipulated onto hardcore pornography then emailed to their family and co-workers, for example?
  - orokusaki 13y ago
    Exactly. Otherwise, include a license with your work, state that it is copyrighted, and still expect people to say whatever they want about you or it... Or, put it on your own private network, known as Not-The-Internet.
    - itsybitsycoder 13y ago
      The 1886 Berne Convention first established recognition of copyrights among sovereign nations, rather than merely bilaterally. Under the Berne Convention, copyrights for creative works do not have to be asserted or declared, as they are automatically in force at creation: an author need not "register" or "apply for" a copyright in countries adhering to the Berne Convention.[10] As soon as a work is "fixed", that is, written or recorded on some physical medium, its author is automatically entitled to all copyrights in the work, and to any derivative works unless and until the author explicitly disclaims them, or until the copyright expires. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
      - bch 13y ago
        Honest question -- is it conceivable that the work is never "fixed" on some physical medium? Years ago, I thought "internet law" was a silly concept -- but as in the case above, the letter of the law might not be enough to support the spirit of the law.

Nursie 13y ago

I would say no. I'd say especially no if someone else submits it! I can't load up the article again (squid error) but IIRC the guy was posted to HN by someone else,d then received a bunch of abuse on his site and via email etc. Perhaps better to keep the verbal abuse here rather than there? When I first started using HN, only a little over a year ago really, it did seem different to now. A lot less criticism (yay, no mudslinging or fanboi fights!) and a lot more bootstrappy startup speak (though that can get just as annoying). Oh well.

bennyg 13y ago

Whenever you put your own work in the world, then expect criticism. It doesn't mean verbal abuse should be the norm - it just means that criticism is most likely gonna' happen. HN isn't the only online community - and it's most likely not your target market for a startup. So pushing a product that's not intended for HN users as a target demographic, and bleeding over every critique here is the wrong move. If anything, you'll understand your tech stack and scalability concerns by doing a Show HN here. It shouldn't be your go-to source for pushing your startup. I like to think of HN as one big subset of focus group users. Get another subset of people with a similar psychographic/demographic trait and you're likely to face just as much criticism, just of a different bent than you would receive here.

thenomad 13y ago
Generally, I agree with everything you say here. If you're asking for feedback, then you will get feedback, and some of it will be critical. I think you'd agree that feedback does not equal verbal abuse. So, to go back to the original question, do you feel that by asking for feedback you're consenting to be verbally abused, or do you feel that's not the case?
- bennyg 13y ago
  I think verbal abuse is a subjective x on the number line of criticism and said feedback. Some people can handle getting called shit, and some people think it's the end of the world. To answer your question, no I don't think when putting something out in the world you're consenting to verbal abuse. I think you're consenting to unmitigated feedback (if it's an online forum, perhaps), and sometimes that feedback will come in the form of verbal abuse - whether that's someone's right or not to give said feedback, I can't say.

orokusaki 13y ago

The Internet is not yours. If you put content on the PUBLIC Internet, consider yourself to be consenting to any abuse the Internet as a whole wishes to dish out in return.

thenomad 13y ago
Really? So if a person decides to post a picture of themselves on their blog, they're consenting to having that picture photomanipulated onto hardcore pornography then emailed to their family and co-workers, for example?
- orokusaki 13y ago
  Exactly. Otherwise, include a license with your work, state that it is copyrighted, and still expect people to say whatever they want about you or it... Or, put it on your own private network, known as Not-The-Internet.
  - itsybitsycoder 13y ago
    The 1886 Berne Convention first established recognition of copyrights among sovereign nations, rather than merely bilaterally. Under the Berne Convention, copyrights for creative works do not have to be asserted or declared, as they are automatically in force at creation: an author need not "register" or "apply for" a copyright in countries adhering to the Berne Convention.[10] As soon as a work is "fixed", that is, written or recorded on some physical medium, its author is automatically entitled to all copyrights in the work, and to any derivative works unless and until the author explicitly disclaims them, or until the copyright expires. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
    - bch 13y ago
      Honest question -- is it conceivable that the work is never "fixed" on some physical medium? Years ago, I thought "internet law" was a silly concept -- but as in the case above, the letter of the law might not be enough to support the spirit of the law.