8 ms·

Airbnb Stay Illegal In New York City, Rules Judge

114 points by chrisvineup 13y ago

honzzz 13y ago
It seems that many people are against AirBnB in their neighbourhood because they they don't like strangers there all the time, it's not pleasant, nothing happened yet but it might... stuff like that. I understand those concerns but I think people who think AirBnB should be illegal because of that are forgetting something. People benefit from being tolerant to each other. Everybody is sometimes doing something that is not pleasant to others. If you are trying to be ok with that unless they are doing something really damaging, they might cut you some slack when you need it - and you _are_ going to need it and when you do, you might _really_ need it. Social pressure is usually enough and people mostly avoid doing things unpleasant to others unless it's somehow justified or considered necessary. Otherwise you are going to live in an over-regulated society where everything that can be unpleasant to somebody is illegal, you need a permit for simplest things like throwing your kid a birthday party and everybody is worse off.
- HelloMcFly 13y ago
  There's got to be an acceptable middle ground though. I really think this is an area where some regulation is needed. I wouldn't want my building to become a hotel, and I don't want housing to become more scarce because landlords see more value in using it as a hotel room. At the same time, I also don't want to stop my neighbors from doing what they want either. One person commented that allowing a certain number of nights per year may be reasonable, and I'd tend to agree. It's a start, at least.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  There's a point here, but there's also a line between tolerance and exploitation. I'm not against my neighbor renting his place out for a month while he travels in Europe, and help pay for his vacation. That's the sort of neighborly thing I'm willing to be on board for. But this, primarily, isn't the contentious issue. The contentious issue is when someone buys an apartment and rents it out full-time as a business venture. Me helping out his business venture by overlooking basic concerns isn't neighborly, it's being a pushover while he laughs his way to the bank. > "Otherwise you are going to live in an over-regulated society where everything that can be unpleasant to somebody is illegal" I agree. And the best way to prevent this over-regulation is to reign in bad actors without having to invoke the law. This is to say, AirBnb needs to go back to its roots as "I'm away from my apartment, who wants it" and not "I have 5 properties around the city".
- jbooth 13y ago
  Being tolerant to each other is great, because like you said, there will come a time when that person is tolerant to you in return. Unless they're in your apartment building on a one night rental. Then, you'll never see them again and they have zero incentive to stay on your good side.
  - honzzz 13y ago
    I think you are completely missing the point. The favour does not necessarily need to be returned by the same people. It's about tolerance accepted as general social value. Lets say that tolerance is some kind of a deal with society - lets all try to be tolerant and we will all benefit - we all have to do our part and if we do we build something together and we are more likely that others will tolerate our annoying habits (or sexual orientation or religion or whatever). Also you could say that this specific ' AirBnB tolerance deal' could be more like please tolerate my guests because I need their money right now and I will tolerate your [something annoying that you certainly do].
    - jbooth 13y ago
      I think it's a bit much to expect a moral and social revolution just to support AirBnB. People are nice to people they're going to see again and generally indifferent/inconsiderate towards people they won't see. That goes double for new york.
will_brown 13y ago
I would like to know if AirBnB is covering the $2,400 assessed penalty on behalf of Nigel Warren. I am also curious about the immediate steps AirBnB is taking to address this, not the long term lobbying effort mentioned at the end of the article. For example, will AirBnB disallow NYC listings under 29 days until this is resolved? Or will they let people roll the dice with disclaimers that such rentals may violate local law and result court assessed fines. As naive as this may sound, especially for a company that is likely already valued over $1 billion, this is a golden opportunity for AirBnB to gain unparallelled media and bolster main stream support.
- kmfrk 13y ago
  As naive as this may sound, especially for a company that is likely already valued over $1 billion, this is a golden opportunity for AirBnB to gain unparallelled media and bolster main stream support. I don't know if that's the case - in fact, it might be the exact opposite. People are growing increasingly tired of companies like Uber and Airbnb using libertarian talking points to rally supporters, whenever regulation gets in their way. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5612159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5612159
  - will_brown 13y ago
    This post is proof enough there is push back, and a voice against neighbors renting out to "unknowns" on short term basis. Coincidentally, your use of libertarian talking point caught me off guard, not that I think it is wrong, but I would have thought "conservative" talking points would be more on point. That is conservatives would generally take the approach that individuals have the freedom to contract especially for their own assets and the ever increasing size and reach of government is intruding on our economic ability and freedom to contract. Back to your point the situation is what it is for AirBnB in NYC, some will certainly see adversity but others will see opportunity.
    - redblacktree 13y ago
      The political views you describe are more precisely termed libertarian (small L), than conservative. Though they could arguably be attributed to both groups.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- jawngee 13y ago
  I don't know if you live in a building where someone is AirBnB'ing their apartment out, but it's not the most pleasant thing. A lot of weirdos in my building and I get paranoid every time I come to Vietnam for a few months. I'm kind of +1 on this.
  - thedeer 13y ago
    But how is it being unpleasant or you getting paranoid justification for making it illegal?
    - mattzito 13y ago
      Because we have the right to feel comfortable or safe in our homes. I know my neighbors, I trust them, or don't trust them as the case may be, but they're my neighbors. Given that so much of NYC is apartment buildings, where your safety, property values, and overall well-being is more intimately entwined with your neighbors' than in a traditional suburban neighborhood, people take the community of a building very seriously. There is no way that having strangers randomly inhabiting that building can improve the community. BTW, if the law were revoked, or restructured in such a way that it wasn't technically legal, and then building boards in NYC could make it against the building rules to AirBnB apartments in that building, would that satisfy your objection? Because I'd be fine with that, and i guarantee that 95% of buildings in NYC would have that rule within days.
      - thedeer 13y ago
        I would argue just the opposite - you do not have the right to feel safe or comfortable in your home. If you feel unsafe then the only right you have is to move (obviously unless what makes you feel unsafe is something like theft or you being attacked). My objection stems from the fact that people sharing their own apartment with strangers is a scenario where two or more consenting adults agree on a peaceful transaction. Making it illegal then treats that peaceful action as something hostile. If the law were revoked or restructured, as you mentioned, and the owner of the building (maybe what you meant by building boards) made it against building rules, then that would certainly satisfy my objection. The owners most definitely have the right to do with their property as they see fit.
ry0ohki 13y ago
"According to CNET, the law originally meant to prevent landlords from turning residential properties into hotels." Which is what AirBnB is essentially?
- Gobitron 13y ago
  Agreed. It strikes me as correct that if I rent/own an apartment in NYC, I should not have to deal with my neighbor's AirBnB business. There is room for compromise, but I would tend to favor putting the burden on AirBnB.
  - jacquesm 13y ago
    How about a person that owns a free-standing house?
    - endersshadow 13y ago
      You're still skirting hotel regulations and occupancy taxes. There's a difference between, "My friend's coming to stay for awhile," and "$100/night to stay at Chateau d'Moi!"
    - AlisdairSH 13y ago
      No different, IMO. I live in a typical suburb - 4 bedroom homes, quarter acre lots. I don't want my neighbor running a B&B. Is there room for compromise? Maybe. On general principle, I wouldn't mind my neighbor renting his house for a few weeks while he's on vacation. But, if the renter isn't a good guest (noisy). Or, instead of one renter for the duration, it's a new guest each night, I probably have a problem. Until AirBnB can convince me nothing like that will happen, I'd just as soon keep the rules as they are.
    - joubert 13y ago
      In Manhattan?
      - msrpotus 13y ago
nsmartt 13y ago
My roommate and I ruled out moving to NYC about a month ago when we started reading about NY and NYC government. I was going to visit for a few months at my roommate's insistence. According to this, it's legal as long as I rent for at least a month, but I'm becoming less and less inclined to visit at all.
- jawngee 13y ago
  Because AirBnB is illegal? I get AirBnB as a service, I really do, but it isn't win-win all around for everyone involved, specifically in big cities where real estate is a precious commodity. Neighbors lose by having strangers in their buildings, renters lose out on available space, airbnb customers lose out on protection of the law (though they have the protection of the company, but the two are not equivalent). Not only have I seen it in my building, but I've seen it in other friend's buildings, in condos that they've bought (I rent). It's a shitty situation for them having strangers consistently churning through the property. Nothing bad has happened yet, but would you want that whole awkward scenario happening on your front step?
  - nsmartt 13y ago
    >Because AirBnB is illegal? No, but the fact that it's illegal to rent out a building I own for a few weeks while I'm on vacation is another paper cut among the many I have already received when researching NY and NYC government. This wouldn't affect me directly (as I've said, living there was ruled out), but I don't approve. It does, therefore, influence my inclination to visit. If this were the only issue, it wouldn't be a deal breaker. I'd just declare it as unfortunate and visit for longer than 29 days to avoid legal issues. >Neighbors lose by having strangers in their buildings I agree with this, but this sounds like a problem to be handled by the owner of the establishment, not a problem to be handled by government. >renters lose out on available space Only if those renters are offering places for short term visits anyway. I have no idea whether that's a common scenario, but leasers are hardly missing out because I'm renting out an extra room. >would you want that whole awkward scenario happening on your front step? I probably wouldn't, but I still don't consider it to be the government's job to ensure that it isn't happening.
Kiro 13y ago
Highly illegal in Sweden as well.
- hakanito 13y ago
  Source?
  - kalleboo 13y ago
    I can believe it. Sweden has a highly regulated renter's market. For instance, you're not allowed to sublet at a cost substantially higher than the average cost of publicly owned housing. People have successfully rented a luxury apartment, then gone to court to get the price difference back.
    - samuellb 13y ago
      Since February 1, 2013 you can no longer get rent back retroactively [1]. You can still send a complaint but then the landlord might refuse to extend your (usually short-term) contract. [1] http://www.konsumentverket.se/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/Nyhetsarkiv-2013/Nya-regler-for-uthyrning-av-bostadsratter-och-villor/ http://www.konsumentverket.se/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/Nyhetsarki... (in Swedish)
      - kalleboo 13y ago
        Thanks for the update!
  - samuellb 13y ago
    I think this is wrong, you can rent out for e.g. less than two weeks (I can't find any minimum actually). See this law (in Swedish): http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/19700994.HTM#K12P4 http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/19700994.HTM#K12P4 On the other hand, the property(=building) owner (both in rental and bostadsrätt/semi-owned apartments) can require a valid reason for renting out (e.g. travel) and limit the maximum time.
grandalf 13y ago
Considering that there are tens of thousands of people kept captive as sex workers in NYC, the decision to crack down on something like airbnb illustrates the strength of the corruption used to maintain the status quo. These kinds of conservative (status-quo preserving) laws are usually exactly that, even if there is some social or humanitarian justification made for their existence.
- casca 13y ago
  Do you have a citation for the "tens of thousands of people kept captive as sex workers"?
  - grandalf 13y ago
    http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/SEX-TRAFFICKING-San-Francisco-Is-A-Major-Center-2468554.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/SEX-TRAFFICKING-San-Franc... same in NY
    - casca 13y ago
      Not sure that a somewhat supported "... [t]here are thousands of trafficked women in San Francisco ..." makes a reasonable basis for asserting that there are "tens of thousands of people kept captive as sex workers". Not to imply in any way that human trafficking is not a significant problem that deserves our attention, but not as a justification for any laws around AirB&B.
      - grandalf 13y ago
        NY has a significantly larger population than SF and has the same kind of sex worker infrastructure. My point is that cracking down on human trafficking does not benefit established interests, while cracking down on AirBnB does, even though there is clearly great harm to those who are enslaved as sex workers and no harm to those who decide to save money on a hotel by staying in an AirBnB room.
- allsystemsgo 13y ago
jamesmcbennett 13y ago
I live in a postgraduate student residence that we are only allowed to sublet to alumni and friends/family of residents. Accepting that people have a need to sublet avoiding the cost of a empty room is combined with the community's need not to have weirdo's. Despite being in the center of London, it is like a small village. What hasn't been included so far is the need for a airbnb host to include his community needs which is presumably where the law is coming from.
WA 13y ago
Does this have practical consequences and if so, when? Because right now, I can still find plenty of appartments in NYC.
- mbesto 13y ago
  The ruling doesn't necessarily mean all Airbnb hosts will be cracked down on, as the city only enforces the rule when a complaint is filed.
macleanjr 13y ago
Title is very misleading, as this only applies to New York City, and not the other 57 counties!
- chrisvineup 13y ago
  Fixed that, sorry!
  - macleanjr 13y ago
    Thanks so much!
jacques_chester 13y ago
This is unhappy news. I was hoping to visit NYC later this year and, for the price of a pretty underwhelming hotel room, there were hundreds of apartments in interesting suburbs. Oh well. At least San Francisco is still OK.
- joonix 13y ago
  People will continue to do it, there are still sublets all over NYC. Just use craigslist. AirBNB listings are always overpriced anyways. The real issue in NYC is squatting. Remember, it takes almost 8 months to go through housing court to get someone evicted in this city. A subtenant could overstay their stay and there's not much you could do about it other than go through this process. A workaround may be to not have any written sublease agreement, get paid in cash only, and call the subtenant a guest.
  - skorgu 13y ago
    IANAL but I believe if the tenant can show you accepted rent it counts as a month to month lease and standard eviction process applies [0]. I don't know what it takes to show that but in general nyc courts are pretty tenant friendly. [0] http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/attygenguide.html#12 http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/attygenguide.html#1...
  - jacques_chester 13y ago
    Listings on craigslist don't come with reviews from previous subletters.
- mattzito 13y ago
  FWIW, if this is really a concern for you, there are tons of hotels in interesting suburbs/outer boroughs now. You can stay in Brooklyn, Queens, in vibrant, non-corporate neighborhoods in interesting boutique hotels.
  - jacques_chester 13y ago
    My original thinking was that an outer borough would be more cost-effective, but my token Friend Who Knows NYC told me that if I'm visiting and I expect to do any business, stay in Manhattan.
jgalt212 13y ago
I've lived in NYC for over 15 years, and as a resident, AirBnB is definitely a net negative for me and others in my cohort--full time residents. 1. Who wants transients moving about your building? I'm sure most of them are nice, but they are certainly not as invested in exhibiting neighborly behavior as full time residents. 2. If AirBnB became a serious economic force in NYC, it would only make my outrageously expensive city more expensive as apartment rents converged upwards towards hotel rates. 3. If I knew a neighbor was doing very short term sublets via AirBnB, or a similar service, I would definitely report them to the building management company or Police. 4. People need to think carefully about the "sharing economy." Not all applications of this paradigm are a net positive, and despite the hacker ethos not all laws are meant to broken. Many laws that have the effect of protecting entrenched players (hotels in this case), also serve valuable consumer protection functions.
- jvm 13y ago
  I completely agree that there are negative externalities to AirBNB, so I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion. But point #2, the rising rents thing, seems unlikely to me. AirBNB increases the supply of housing. It does nothing to demand. Prices should drop. I imagine it would either have no perceptible effect on rents, or in an extreme scenario would cause hotels to close and convert to apartments which would lower rents. Finally, this is a common misconception, rents for hotels are identical to rents for residential housing. Otherwise why wouldn't ever landlord switch to running a hotel? It costs more per night to stay at one because (a) you're paying for excessive housekeeping and (b) you're paying for the high vacancy in downtimes caused by ultra-high turnover in tenants. Basically, a high proportion of the hotel fee is paying for actual services, not the building's rent.
  - msrpotus 13y ago
    Might be true in theory but not in NYC. There are constantly cases of illegal hotel conversions where landlords try to run their own hotels. That might be partially to avoid licensing (I know hotels in NYC need special permits) and taxes, but it's not the case that residential landlords don't want to run hotels.
  - 13y ago
michool 13y ago
Laws are needed to prevent people being ripped off and generally taken advantage of. What this law from the past fails to cater for is that bad comments on AirBnB could well be as effective at safeguarding others against sub-standard rooms as the original law could ever be. Or much better and that must be a scary thought for legislators.
- jasonlotito 13y ago
  > Laws are needed to prevent people being ripped off and generally taken advantage of. You mean like people renting an apartment only to find out the rest of the place is being used as a hotel?
  - michool 13y ago
    Well, that too. That's the thing about people living together - they're always going to get into each other's way.
- Nursie 13y ago
  LOL. Yes, all bad things can be much more effectively regulated with an online review.
6thSigma 13y ago
I visited NYC a few months ago and met someone who just moved to Manhattan from Boston. I asked about how she found a place to live and she said it was the worst experience she's ever had. She said that it was impossible to find apartments for rent online, so she was basically forced to walk around the neighborhoods knocking on doors to find an apartment. Half the apartments said they were full, and the other half wouldn't even let her in the lobby. She ended up biting the bullet and hiring an apartment hunter. All of a sudden a ton of apartments had rooms available, including some of the apartments who told her they were full or didn't let her in the lobby. That told me there is a ton of politics involved in the leasing market in NYC. It doesn't surprise me at all they don't like things like Airbnb.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  The startup Urban Compass is trying to fix this problem: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/7/4304374/urban-compass http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/7/4304374/urban-compass
pothibo 13y ago
I've used Airbnb to stay in Manhattan last winter and it's a shame that it comes to this since I was planning to use it again. The thing that made us use airbnb was two folds: Having a kitchen was important to us (quick breakfast eating whatever we want) and also the feeling of "living in the Big Apple". Second part would have been impossible with hotels. Sad really. As for some rants about AirBnber's "not being as invested in exhibiting neighborly behavior". The same could be said about other cultures moving in your neighborhood.
Diamons 13y ago
I'm a New Yorker here and plain and simple, we don't want AirBnB. This is New York City and the residents of this city have time and time again voiced their displeasure towards AirBnB, so why are people from elsewhere saying this is a bad thing? The shoe just doesn't fit here.
- kirillzubovsky 13y ago
  I would bet that thousands of New Yorkers who use Airbnb to make ends meet think otherwise.

114 points by chrisvineup 13y ago

It seems that many people are against AirBnB in their neighbourhood because they they don't like strangers there all the time, it's not pleasant, nothing happened yet but it might... stuff like that. I understand those concerns but I think people who think AirBnB should be illegal because of that are forgetting something. People benefit from being tolerant to each other. Everybody is sometimes doing something that is not pleasant to others. If you are trying to be ok with that unless they are doing something really damaging, they might cut you some slack when you need it - and you _are_ going to need it and when you do, you might _really_ need it. Social pressure is usually enough and people mostly avoid doing things unpleasant to others unless it's somehow justified or considered necessary. Otherwise you are going to live in an over-regulated society where everything that can be unpleasant to somebody is illegal, you need a permit for simplest things like throwing your kid a birthday party and everybody is worse off.

HelloMcFly 13y ago
There's got to be an acceptable middle ground though. I really think this is an area where some regulation is needed. I wouldn't want my building to become a hotel, and I don't want housing to become more scarce because landlords see more value in using it as a hotel room. At the same time, I also don't want to stop my neighbors from doing what they want either. One person commented that allowing a certain number of nights per year may be reasonable, and I'd tend to agree. It's a start, at least.
potatolicious 13y ago
There's a point here, but there's also a line between tolerance and exploitation. I'm not against my neighbor renting his place out for a month while he travels in Europe, and help pay for his vacation. That's the sort of neighborly thing I'm willing to be on board for. But this, primarily, isn't the contentious issue. The contentious issue is when someone buys an apartment and rents it out full-time as a business venture. Me helping out his business venture by overlooking basic concerns isn't neighborly, it's being a pushover while he laughs his way to the bank. > "Otherwise you are going to live in an over-regulated society where everything that can be unpleasant to somebody is illegal" I agree. And the best way to prevent this over-regulation is to reign in bad actors without having to invoke the law. This is to say, AirBnb needs to go back to its roots as "I'm away from my apartment, who wants it" and not "I have 5 properties around the city".
jbooth 13y ago
Being tolerant to each other is great, because like you said, there will come a time when that person is tolerant to you in return. Unless they're in your apartment building on a one night rental. Then, you'll never see them again and they have zero incentive to stay on your good side.
- honzzz 13y ago
  I think you are completely missing the point. The favour does not necessarily need to be returned by the same people. It's about tolerance accepted as general social value. Lets say that tolerance is some kind of a deal with society - lets all try to be tolerant and we will all benefit - we all have to do our part and if we do we build something together and we are more likely that others will tolerate our annoying habits (or sexual orientation or religion or whatever). Also you could say that this specific ' AirBnB tolerance deal' could be more like please tolerate my guests because I need their money right now and I will tolerate your [something annoying that you certainly do].
  - jbooth 13y ago
    I think it's a bit much to expect a moral and social revolution just to support AirBnB. People are nice to people they're going to see again and generally indifferent/inconsiderate towards people they won't see. That goes double for new york.

will_brown 13y ago

I would like to know if AirBnB is covering the $2,400 assessed penalty on behalf of Nigel Warren. I am also curious about the immediate steps AirBnB is taking to address this, not the long term lobbying effort mentioned at the end of the article. For example, will AirBnB disallow NYC listings under 29 days until this is resolved? Or will they let people roll the dice with disclaimers that such rentals may violate local law and result court assessed fines. As naive as this may sound, especially for a company that is likely already valued over $1 billion, this is a golden opportunity for AirBnB to gain unparallelled media and bolster main stream support.

kmfrk 13y ago
As naive as this may sound, especially for a company that is likely already valued over $1 billion, this is a golden opportunity for AirBnB to gain unparallelled media and bolster main stream support. I don't know if that's the case - in fact, it might be the exact opposite. People are growing increasingly tired of companies like Uber and Airbnb using libertarian talking points to rally supporters, whenever regulation gets in their way. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5612159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5612159
- will_brown 13y ago
  This post is proof enough there is push back, and a voice against neighbors renting out to "unknowns" on short term basis. Coincidentally, your use of libertarian talking point caught me off guard, not that I think it is wrong, but I would have thought "conservative" talking points would be more on point. That is conservatives would generally take the approach that individuals have the freedom to contract especially for their own assets and the ever increasing size and reach of government is intruding on our economic ability and freedom to contract. Back to your point the situation is what it is for AirBnB in NYC, some will certainly see adversity but others will see opportunity.
  - redblacktree 13y ago
    The political views you describe are more precisely termed libertarian (small L), than conservative. Though they could arguably be attributed to both groups.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jawngee 13y ago
I don't know if you live in a building where someone is AirBnB'ing their apartment out, but it's not the most pleasant thing. A lot of weirdos in my building and I get paranoid every time I come to Vietnam for a few months. I'm kind of +1 on this.
- thedeer 13y ago
  But how is it being unpleasant or you getting paranoid justification for making it illegal?
  - mattzito 13y ago
    Because we have the right to feel comfortable or safe in our homes. I know my neighbors, I trust them, or don't trust them as the case may be, but they're my neighbors. Given that so much of NYC is apartment buildings, where your safety, property values, and overall well-being is more intimately entwined with your neighbors' than in a traditional suburban neighborhood, people take the community of a building very seriously. There is no way that having strangers randomly inhabiting that building can improve the community. BTW, if the law were revoked, or restructured in such a way that it wasn't technically legal, and then building boards in NYC could make it against the building rules to AirBnB apartments in that building, would that satisfy your objection? Because I'd be fine with that, and i guarantee that 95% of buildings in NYC would have that rule within days.
    - thedeer 13y ago
      I would argue just the opposite - you do not have the right to feel safe or comfortable in your home. If you feel unsafe then the only right you have is to move (obviously unless what makes you feel unsafe is something like theft or you being attacked). My objection stems from the fact that people sharing their own apartment with strangers is a scenario where two or more consenting adults agree on a peaceful transaction. Making it illegal then treats that peaceful action as something hostile. If the law were revoked or restructured, as you mentioned, and the owner of the building (maybe what you meant by building boards) made it against building rules, then that would certainly satisfy my objection. The owners most definitely have the right to do with their property as they see fit.

ry0ohki 13y ago

"According to CNET, the law originally meant to prevent landlords from turning residential properties into hotels." Which is what AirBnB is essentially?

Gobitron 13y ago
Agreed. It strikes me as correct that if I rent/own an apartment in NYC, I should not have to deal with my neighbor's AirBnB business. There is room for compromise, but I would tend to favor putting the burden on AirBnB.
- jacquesm 13y ago
  How about a person that owns a free-standing house?
  - endersshadow 13y ago
    You're still skirting hotel regulations and occupancy taxes. There's a difference between, "My friend's coming to stay for awhile," and "$100/night to stay at Chateau d'Moi!"
  - AlisdairSH 13y ago
    No different, IMO. I live in a typical suburb - 4 bedroom homes, quarter acre lots. I don't want my neighbor running a B&B. Is there room for compromise? Maybe. On general principle, I wouldn't mind my neighbor renting his house for a few weeks while he's on vacation. But, if the renter isn't a good guest (noisy). Or, instead of one renter for the duration, it's a new guest each night, I probably have a problem. Until AirBnB can convince me nothing like that will happen, I'd just as soon keep the rules as they are.
  - joubert 13y ago
    In Manhattan?
    - msrpotus 13y ago

nsmartt 13y ago

My roommate and I ruled out moving to NYC about a month ago when we started reading about NY and NYC government. I was going to visit for a few months at my roommate's insistence. According to this, it's legal as long as I rent for at least a month, but I'm becoming less and less inclined to visit at all.

jawngee 13y ago
Because AirBnB is illegal? I get AirBnB as a service, I really do, but it isn't win-win all around for everyone involved, specifically in big cities where real estate is a precious commodity. Neighbors lose by having strangers in their buildings, renters lose out on available space, airbnb customers lose out on protection of the law (though they have the protection of the company, but the two are not equivalent). Not only have I seen it in my building, but I've seen it in other friend's buildings, in condos that they've bought (I rent). It's a shitty situation for them having strangers consistently churning through the property. Nothing bad has happened yet, but would you want that whole awkward scenario happening on your front step?
- nsmartt 13y ago
  >Because AirBnB is illegal? No, but the fact that it's illegal to rent out a building I own for a few weeks while I'm on vacation is another paper cut among the many I have already received when researching NY and NYC government. This wouldn't affect me directly (as I've said, living there was ruled out), but I don't approve. It does, therefore, influence my inclination to visit. If this were the only issue, it wouldn't be a deal breaker. I'd just declare it as unfortunate and visit for longer than 29 days to avoid legal issues. >Neighbors lose by having strangers in their buildings I agree with this, but this sounds like a problem to be handled by the owner of the establishment, not a problem to be handled by government. >renters lose out on available space Only if those renters are offering places for short term visits anyway. I have no idea whether that's a common scenario, but leasers are hardly missing out because I'm renting out an extra room. >would you want that whole awkward scenario happening on your front step? I probably wouldn't, but I still don't consider it to be the government's job to ensure that it isn't happening.

Kiro 13y ago

Highly illegal in Sweden as well.

hakanito 13y ago
Source?
- kalleboo 13y ago
  I can believe it. Sweden has a highly regulated renter's market. For instance, you're not allowed to sublet at a cost substantially higher than the average cost of publicly owned housing. People have successfully rented a luxury apartment, then gone to court to get the price difference back.
  - samuellb 13y ago
    Since February 1, 2013 you can no longer get rent back retroactively [1]. You can still send a complaint but then the landlord might refuse to extend your (usually short-term) contract. [1] http://www.konsumentverket.se/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/Nyhetsarkiv-2013/Nya-regler-for-uthyrning-av-bostadsratter-och-villor/ http://www.konsumentverket.se/Nyheter/Nyhetsarkiv/Nyhetsarki... (in Swedish)
    - kalleboo 13y ago
      Thanks for the update!
- samuellb 13y ago
  I think this is wrong, you can rent out for e.g. less than two weeks (I can't find any minimum actually). See this law (in Swedish): http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/19700994.HTM#K12P4 http://www.notisum.se/rnp/sls/lag/19700994.HTM#K12P4 On the other hand, the property(=building) owner (both in rental and bostadsrätt/semi-owned apartments) can require a valid reason for renting out (e.g. travel) and limit the maximum time.

grandalf 13y ago

Considering that there are tens of thousands of people kept captive as sex workers in NYC, the decision to crack down on something like airbnb illustrates the strength of the corruption used to maintain the status quo. These kinds of conservative (status-quo preserving) laws are usually exactly that, even if there is some social or humanitarian justification made for their existence.

casca 13y ago
Do you have a citation for the "tens of thousands of people kept captive as sex workers"?
- grandalf 13y ago
  http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/SEX-TRAFFICKING-San-Francisco-Is-A-Major-Center-2468554.php http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/SEX-TRAFFICKING-San-Franc... same in NY
  - casca 13y ago
    Not sure that a somewhat supported "... [t]here are thousands of trafficked women in San Francisco ..." makes a reasonable basis for asserting that there are "tens of thousands of people kept captive as sex workers". Not to imply in any way that human trafficking is not a significant problem that deserves our attention, but not as a justification for any laws around AirB&B.
    - grandalf 13y ago
      NY has a significantly larger population than SF and has the same kind of sex worker infrastructure. My point is that cracking down on human trafficking does not benefit established interests, while cracking down on AirBnB does, even though there is clearly great harm to those who are enslaved as sex workers and no harm to those who decide to save money on a hotel by staying in an AirBnB room.
allsystemsgo 13y ago

jamesmcbennett 13y ago

I live in a postgraduate student residence that we are only allowed to sublet to alumni and friends/family of residents. Accepting that people have a need to sublet avoiding the cost of a empty room is combined with the community's need not to have weirdo's. Despite being in the center of London, it is like a small village. What hasn't been included so far is the need for a airbnb host to include his community needs which is presumably where the law is coming from.

WA 13y ago

Does this have practical consequences and if so, when? Because right now, I can still find plenty of appartments in NYC.

mbesto 13y ago
The ruling doesn't necessarily mean all Airbnb hosts will be cracked down on, as the city only enforces the rule when a complaint is filed.

macleanjr 13y ago

Title is very misleading, as this only applies to New York City, and not the other 57 counties!

chrisvineup 13y ago
Fixed that, sorry!
- macleanjr 13y ago
  Thanks so much!

jacques_chester 13y ago

This is unhappy news. I was hoping to visit NYC later this year and, for the price of a pretty underwhelming hotel room, there were hundreds of apartments in interesting suburbs. Oh well. At least San Francisco is still OK.

joonix 13y ago
People will continue to do it, there are still sublets all over NYC. Just use craigslist. AirBNB listings are always overpriced anyways. The real issue in NYC is squatting. Remember, it takes almost 8 months to go through housing court to get someone evicted in this city. A subtenant could overstay their stay and there's not much you could do about it other than go through this process. A workaround may be to not have any written sublease agreement, get paid in cash only, and call the subtenant a guest.
- skorgu 13y ago
  IANAL but I believe if the tenant can show you accepted rent it counts as a month to month lease and standard eviction process applies [0]. I don't know what it takes to show that but in general nyc courts are pretty tenant friendly. [0] http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/attygenguide.html#12 http://www.housingnyc.com/html/resources/attygenguide.html#1...
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  Listings on craigslist don't come with reviews from previous subletters.
mattzito 13y ago
FWIW, if this is really a concern for you, there are tons of hotels in interesting suburbs/outer boroughs now. You can stay in Brooklyn, Queens, in vibrant, non-corporate neighborhoods in interesting boutique hotels.
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  My original thinking was that an outer borough would be more cost-effective, but my token Friend Who Knows NYC told me that if I'm visiting and I expect to do any business, stay in Manhattan.

jgalt212 13y ago

I've lived in NYC for over 15 years, and as a resident, AirBnB is definitely a net negative for me and others in my cohort--full time residents. 1. Who wants transients moving about your building? I'm sure most of them are nice, but they are certainly not as invested in exhibiting neighborly behavior as full time residents. 2. If AirBnB became a serious economic force in NYC, it would only make my outrageously expensive city more expensive as apartment rents converged upwards towards hotel rates. 3. If I knew a neighbor was doing very short term sublets via AirBnB, or a similar service, I would definitely report them to the building management company or Police. 4. People need to think carefully about the "sharing economy." Not all applications of this paradigm are a net positive, and despite the hacker ethos not all laws are meant to broken. Many laws that have the effect of protecting entrenched players (hotels in this case), also serve valuable consumer protection functions.

jvm 13y ago
I completely agree that there are negative externalities to AirBNB, so I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion. But point #2, the rising rents thing, seems unlikely to me. AirBNB increases the supply of housing. It does nothing to demand. Prices should drop. I imagine it would either have no perceptible effect on rents, or in an extreme scenario would cause hotels to close and convert to apartments which would lower rents. Finally, this is a common misconception, rents for hotels are identical to rents for residential housing. Otherwise why wouldn't ever landlord switch to running a hotel? It costs more per night to stay at one because (a) you're paying for excessive housekeeping and (b) you're paying for the high vacancy in downtimes caused by ultra-high turnover in tenants. Basically, a high proportion of the hotel fee is paying for actual services, not the building's rent.
- msrpotus 13y ago
  Might be true in theory but not in NYC. There are constantly cases of illegal hotel conversions where landlords try to run their own hotels. That might be partially to avoid licensing (I know hotels in NYC need special permits) and taxes, but it's not the case that residential landlords don't want to run hotels.
- 13y ago

michool 13y ago

Laws are needed to prevent people being ripped off and generally taken advantage of. What this law from the past fails to cater for is that bad comments on AirBnB could well be as effective at safeguarding others against sub-standard rooms as the original law could ever be. Or much better and that must be a scary thought for legislators.

jasonlotito 13y ago
> Laws are needed to prevent people being ripped off and generally taken advantage of. You mean like people renting an apartment only to find out the rest of the place is being used as a hotel?
- michool 13y ago
  Well, that too. That's the thing about people living together - they're always going to get into each other's way.
Nursie 13y ago
LOL. Yes, all bad things can be much more effectively regulated with an online review.

6thSigma 13y ago

I visited NYC a few months ago and met someone who just moved to Manhattan from Boston. I asked about how she found a place to live and she said it was the worst experience she's ever had. She said that it was impossible to find apartments for rent online, so she was basically forced to walk around the neighborhoods knocking on doors to find an apartment. Half the apartments said they were full, and the other half wouldn't even let her in the lobby. She ended up biting the bullet and hiring an apartment hunter. All of a sudden a ton of apartments had rooms available, including some of the apartments who told her they were full or didn't let her in the lobby. That told me there is a ton of politics involved in the leasing market in NYC. It doesn't surprise me at all they don't like things like Airbnb.

w1ntermute 13y ago
The startup Urban Compass is trying to fix this problem: http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/7/4304374/urban-compass http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/7/4304374/urban-compass

pothibo 13y ago

I've used Airbnb to stay in Manhattan last winter and it's a shame that it comes to this since I was planning to use it again. The thing that made us use airbnb was two folds: Having a kitchen was important to us (quick breakfast eating whatever we want) and also the feeling of "living in the Big Apple". Second part would have been impossible with hotels. Sad really. As for some rants about AirBnber's "not being as invested in exhibiting neighborly behavior". The same could be said about other cultures moving in your neighborhood.

Diamons 13y ago

I'm a New Yorker here and plain and simple, we don't want AirBnB. This is New York City and the residents of this city have time and time again voiced their displeasure towards AirBnB, so why are people from elsewhere saying this is a bad thing? The shoe just doesn't fit here.

kirillzubovsky 13y ago
I would bet that thousands of New Yorkers who use Airbnb to make ends meet think otherwise.