6 ms·

We're talking about someone who contributed a lot to the internet as it is today, so a minimal measure of respect would seem to be in order. Not that personal a

by Udo 13y ago

We're talking about someone who contributed a lot to the internet as it is today, so a minimal measure of respect would seem to be in order. Not that personal attacks are OK in other cases. But if we're doing character critique, I wouldn't say he typically whines a lot. He does occasionally come across as bitter and self-indulgent on his blog however. I have to say that in this example, he either doesn't do a good job of explaining what's so horrible about "the button problem", or it is indeed an instance where walking out on the conference call was probably the kindest thing Mayer could have done. A lot of us would probably have either laughed or yelled at him. On the other hand, I can see how the intent of making the Blog This! button software-agnostic was ahead of its time. I certainly wish there had been more of that, it would have led to a different set of rules for web apps as they are today. But I guess (or rather: hope) the point where the web globally recognizes the value and spirit of openness is still in the future.

jerf 13y ago
"On the other hand, I can see how the intent of making the Blog This! button software-agnostic was ahead of its time." At the risk of putting words in his mouth, I imagine part of his frustration is probably that making it software-dependent was a regression. There was already a budding ecosystem of blog-system-agnostic authoring tools, building off protocols he'd had a significant hand in, and while the protocol as it stood at the time[1] was probably going to require a version 2 at some point, it really wasn't that hard to make things like that very cross-platform. Even now from what I can see, there's a lot of overlap between the various platforms, and with the addition of some ability to upload images and other media into a rich text blog post you could probably catch >99.9% of blog posts made today across all the popular blogging platforms. I still think the blogging world may yet rise again as the centralization meets the end it always does, but when that happens it will be recapitulating development that has largely already occurred, ten+ years ago. (And if history is any guide, it will be from scratch and with loud acclamations about how innovative it all is.) [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetaWeblog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetaWeblog
- KirinDave 13y ago
  I'm not sure how we're currently not in a golden age of self-published content. The idea that we're only there when we have some sort of meta-distributed protocol is a pretty big implicit value judgment.
  - jerf 13y ago
    I didn't say that we're not in a good time. I said centralization will meet its inevitable end. It's inevitable whether it's good or bad. (Usually it's a lot of both.)
    - mayank 13y ago
      Please do elaborate, because I happen to hold the opposite view. Decentralized systems are hard to implement: QoS, reliability, search, security, etc.
      - jerf 13y ago
        They are harder, but they eventually dominate the centralized systems. This is probably due to a combination of the O(n^2) value of the decentralized system dominating even the most valuable centralized system, and also the fact of centralization inevitably produces a whole bunch of people out to get the central player. But I don't really know. This isn't an normative argument I'm making about what I think should be, it's an observation about history. Centralized email has given way to SMTP, for better and for worse. Centralized document systems gave way to gopher gave way to the web. Centralized newsgroups gave way to distributed forums. Centralized social media will eventually give way to a richer distributed ecosystem. I don't even know exactly how, but it will happen someday. It's just what happens. Eventually, too many people will be gunning for Facebook for them to be the monopoly. (Probably the best counterexample is IM, which never properly federated. Arguably, this is because IM simply isn't that desirable. It's something people sorta kinda want, but not so much that it's actually monetizable, so possibly it's evidence in favor of the "success produces lots of people gunning for a piece of the pie" being the dominant factor. IM has never had anyone so successful (monetarily) that we had tons of people gunning for that space.)
in2d 13y ago
Bitter and self-indulgent? That's pretty much Winer every day on his blog. He gets excited, talks up whatever he's working on, gets upset when he's ignored, and hates whenever anyone else is getting attention he believes he deserves. I'm sorry, Dave has helped create and develop some good things in the past, but it's time people were honest and not 'afraid' of how they might sound. Dave Winer is a bitter, angry man. Period. He's always been that way, and it's only gotten worse as he's gotten older. He's spent an entire career attacking, and now that there's a new generation of creators and he's been forgotten, he's stomping his feet because I'm sure he feels as if he's being ignored. And in many ways, he is. No one really wants to deal with an egomaniac. I actually feel sorry for Dave Winer, but we reap what we sow. And he's definitely reaping at this stage of his career.
- Udo 13y ago
  > but it's time people were honest and not 'afraid' of how they might sound. On that note, why don't you post this with your real account then? I'm using my real name, Danilo sure is using his, and we're talking (trash) about a real person who, by the way, also has an HN account to his name. You, however, created in2d for the sole purpose of making this inflammatory comment.
  - davewiner 13y ago
    Hacker News has always been like this. What's new at least in my experience is that the jerks are getting some pushback. I doubt if any of these people know me. I'm working hard on a startup now, with good results. I don't know who they're describing here, but it ain't me! ;-)
    - chris_wot 13y ago
      I just want to say, it was entirely unreasonable of them to have made personal comments about you. There was a comment that compared you to a "whiner", and another that slagged off at you for no particularly good reason that I could see. Both posts I voted down, and I hope others do also. HN is better than this. I'm sorry you had to read that crap. I wish you the best at your next startup!

by Udo 13y ago

jerf 13y ago

"On the other hand, I can see how the intent of making the Blog This! button software-agnostic was ahead of its time." At the risk of putting words in his mouth, I imagine part of his frustration is probably that making it software-dependent was a regression. There was already a budding ecosystem of blog-system-agnostic authoring tools, building off protocols he'd had a significant hand in, and while the protocol as it stood at the time[1] was probably going to require a version 2 at some point, it really wasn't that hard to make things like that very cross-platform. Even now from what I can see, there's a lot of overlap between the various platforms, and with the addition of some ability to upload images and other media into a rich text blog post you could probably catch >99.9% of blog posts made today across all the popular blogging platforms. I still think the blogging world may yet rise again as the centralization meets the end it always does, but when that happens it will be recapitulating development that has largely already occurred, ten+ years ago. (And if history is any guide, it will be from scratch and with loud acclamations about how innovative it all is.) [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetaWeblog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetaWeblog

KirinDave 13y ago
I'm not sure how we're currently not in a golden age of self-published content. The idea that we're only there when we have some sort of meta-distributed protocol is a pretty big implicit value judgment.
- jerf 13y ago
  I didn't say that we're not in a good time. I said centralization will meet its inevitable end. It's inevitable whether it's good or bad. (Usually it's a lot of both.)
  - mayank 13y ago
    Please do elaborate, because I happen to hold the opposite view. Decentralized systems are hard to implement: QoS, reliability, search, security, etc.
    - jerf 13y ago
      They are harder, but they eventually dominate the centralized systems. This is probably due to a combination of the O(n^2) value of the decentralized system dominating even the most valuable centralized system, and also the fact of centralization inevitably produces a whole bunch of people out to get the central player. But I don't really know. This isn't an normative argument I'm making about what I think should be, it's an observation about history. Centralized email has given way to SMTP, for better and for worse. Centralized document systems gave way to gopher gave way to the web. Centralized newsgroups gave way to distributed forums. Centralized social media will eventually give way to a richer distributed ecosystem. I don't even know exactly how, but it will happen someday. It's just what happens. Eventually, too many people will be gunning for Facebook for them to be the monopoly. (Probably the best counterexample is IM, which never properly federated. Arguably, this is because IM simply isn't that desirable. It's something people sorta kinda want, but not so much that it's actually monetizable, so possibly it's evidence in favor of the "success produces lots of people gunning for a piece of the pie" being the dominant factor. IM has never had anyone so successful (monetarily) that we had tons of people gunning for that space.)

in2d 13y ago

Bitter and self-indulgent? That's pretty much Winer every day on his blog. He gets excited, talks up whatever he's working on, gets upset when he's ignored, and hates whenever anyone else is getting attention he believes he deserves. I'm sorry, Dave has helped create and develop some good things in the past, but it's time people were honest and not 'afraid' of how they might sound. Dave Winer is a bitter, angry man. Period. He's always been that way, and it's only gotten worse as he's gotten older. He's spent an entire career attacking, and now that there's a new generation of creators and he's been forgotten, he's stomping his feet because I'm sure he feels as if he's being ignored. And in many ways, he is. No one really wants to deal with an egomaniac. I actually feel sorry for Dave Winer, but we reap what we sow. And he's definitely reaping at this stage of his career.

Udo 13y ago
> but it's time people were honest and not 'afraid' of how they might sound. On that note, why don't you post this with your real account then? I'm using my real name, Danilo sure is using his, and we're talking (trash) about a real person who, by the way, also has an HN account to his name. You, however, created in2d for the sole purpose of making this inflammatory comment.
- davewiner 13y ago
  Hacker News has always been like this. What's new at least in my experience is that the jerks are getting some pushback. I doubt if any of these people know me. I'm working hard on a startup now, with good results. I don't know who they're describing here, but it ain't me! ;-)
  - chris_wot 13y ago
    I just want to say, it was entirely unreasonable of them to have made personal comments about you. There was a comment that compared you to a "whiner", and another that slagged off at you for no particularly good reason that I could see. Both posts I voted down, and I hope others do also. HN is better than this. I'm sorry you had to read that crap. I wish you the best at your next startup!