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Chinese Hackers Resume Attacks on U.S. Targets

36 points by donohoe 13y ago

wilfra 13y ago
It's fascinating how countries can maintain normal relations in other areas while things like this, catching each others spies (Russia) etc is going on at the exact same time. Similar to how it's very strange how Apple and Samsung can maintain their business relationship while suing each other all over the globe and bashing each other in the media. I guess I would make a bad diplomat, US President or BigCorp CEO. When somebody craps on my face I lose the willingness to cooperate with them. I want nothing more to do with them.
- berntb 13y ago
  Compare this with that both Russia and China now support some of the world's worst dictators (e.g. Syria, closing rapidly on 100,000 dead) -- without any real outcry. This seems like details (except economically).
- Udo 13y ago
  This kind of cooperation has immense short-term benefits, that's why countries and companies do it. Of course, over the long term, there is a hefty price and part of that price is that this behavior not only continues but gets amplified over time. This happens because the parties in question are allowed to get away with murder, sometimes literally, and there are no repercussions. Over time this can lead to a profound imbalance of power like in the US-vs-China relationship - but sometimes insane destructive acts on both sides can even out as observed in Apple-vs-Samsung.
- wahsd 13y ago
  Humans, is the answer. We are a very conniving, deceptive, self-delusional, self-destructive beast. I theorize that it is due to the nature of European mores dominating and setting the tone first, globally; but, essentially, it comes down to the psychopaths controlling the rational, reasonable, good, people because the system supports encourages, and even rewards devious behavior while sabotaging, discouraging, and even penalizing good traits and behaviors. As long as exploitation is so heavily rewarded and the real consequences are so remote and minuscule; it will not change. The way the reward, incentive, and penalty structure is set up currently; you have to be an unprincipled personality to operate in that space.
  - laumars 13y ago
    I don't think you can really blame the Europeans because cultures isolated from and even predating Europe's conquest across the globe have demonstrated similar traits. If anything, this is more a symptom of survival of the fittest. An evolutionary trait that isn't really required in modern culture but sadly (and as you rightly pointed out) we still do reward those who are ruthless.
taylodl 13y ago
The diplomatic solution would be to have a doctrine of cyber warfare drafted by the U.N. that explicitly states when a cyber warfare attack is an act of war. There would also have to be guidelines of evidence that a state was sponsoring or had knowledge of but failed to control these acts. Unless and until such a resolution is adopted there's very little we can do other than incorporate cyber warfare defense as a component of our overall national defense.
- pyre 13y ago
  - The US might not like these because then they can't send malware into Iran to disrupt their nuclear program. - Tracing the 'real' source of an attack can be difficult. E.g. what if it's only being routed through China? - This would only encourage a more 'locked down' Internet. Reducing the current open-ness of the Internet, and putting up strict national boundaries in order to make it easier to control/find attacks leaving your country so that they don't trigger a war.
  - waps 13y ago
    Furthermore, would an American population really support -say- a nuclear attack on China because certain information was compromised, or because the lights went out in America for a few days ? A week ? Fat chance. Would such an attack stop the cyber attack ? Probably not. Disconnect from the internet ? Not an option for any trade-based nation, plus also unlikely to stop the cyber attacks. First lesson in international law - there is no international law, because the actors involved are sovereign and only prolonged warfare can -sometimes- dislodge them, at massive cost. So open violations of international treaties, even on large scale, are let go without consequences. Say, for example, something between legal discrimination (at minimum denial of religious freedom, article 2 UNHR) and religious genocide is happening in most/all muslim countries (with countries like Morocco and Turkey "merely" discriminating and Sudan, Pakistan and Bangladesh regularly being accused of large-scale state-sponsored religious genocide). And it's not like most of those countries are even a real military threat. For China the question may be simpler, of course. It is certainly, shall we say, "absorbing" a few of it's neighbors. Again, what are you going to do ?
  - 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
lmg643 13y ago
1) My company started getting spam hits a few days ago on our "request a demo" page and they have not let up. I am guessing they are related, only because of timing. The attacks seem super lame to me - random emails, garbage messages, over and over. But I guess there are companies out there with weak security and those are the ones who will wind up giving up information. 2) Reading about this, I am wondering whether the attacks are so clumsy and obvious that the nuisance factor makes them newsworthy. Either that, or perhaps someone wants to drum up antagonism against China. America's allies spy on the US constantly, sometimes with incredibly damaging effects. The Jonathan Pollard case comes to mind.
- state 13y ago
  We have been experiencing the same thing. Aggressive SSH logins and abusive crawling of URLs. The timing is really, really weird.
  - kyllo 13y ago
    Do you think they're just using some kind of automated penetration testing software like Metasploit?
- anExcitedBeast 13y ago
  I doubt you're dealing with these guys. The original APT1 report seems to indicate the bad guys are a little more clever with their phishing, and I doubt they would get sloppier post report.
16s 13y ago
Many of these security Companies are like preachers. They need a devil so that they can sell their salvation. China seems to be the devil right now. In a few years, it'll be something or someone else.
- anExcitedBeast 13y ago
  Exterminators need roaches, too. Just because someone stands to profit doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
knodi 13y ago
What happens when an this kind of attack originates from US, attaching Chinese state agency or company? Is are people/person involved prosecuted?
ExpiredLink 13y ago
I hope the Chinese didn't find evidence for weapons of mass destruction in the US. Otherwise ...
flagnog 13y ago
I say the response should be pretty simple: a statement that, when the economic damage reaches a certain level, we repudiate all Chinese owned debt. Then start running a countdown.

36 points by donohoe 13y ago

It's fascinating how countries can maintain normal relations in other areas while things like this, catching each others spies (Russia) etc is going on at the exact same time. Similar to how it's very strange how Apple and Samsung can maintain their business relationship while suing each other all over the globe and bashing each other in the media. I guess I would make a bad diplomat, US President or BigCorp CEO. When somebody craps on my face I lose the willingness to cooperate with them. I want nothing more to do with them.

berntb 13y ago
Compare this with that both Russia and China now support some of the world's worst dictators (e.g. Syria, closing rapidly on 100,000 dead) -- without any real outcry. This seems like details (except economically).
Udo 13y ago
This kind of cooperation has immense short-term benefits, that's why countries and companies do it. Of course, over the long term, there is a hefty price and part of that price is that this behavior not only continues but gets amplified over time. This happens because the parties in question are allowed to get away with murder, sometimes literally, and there are no repercussions. Over time this can lead to a profound imbalance of power like in the US-vs-China relationship - but sometimes insane destructive acts on both sides can even out as observed in Apple-vs-Samsung.
wahsd 13y ago
Humans, is the answer. We are a very conniving, deceptive, self-delusional, self-destructive beast. I theorize that it is due to the nature of European mores dominating and setting the tone first, globally; but, essentially, it comes down to the psychopaths controlling the rational, reasonable, good, people because the system supports encourages, and even rewards devious behavior while sabotaging, discouraging, and even penalizing good traits and behaviors. As long as exploitation is so heavily rewarded and the real consequences are so remote and minuscule; it will not change. The way the reward, incentive, and penalty structure is set up currently; you have to be an unprincipled personality to operate in that space.
- laumars 13y ago
  I don't think you can really blame the Europeans because cultures isolated from and even predating Europe's conquest across the globe have demonstrated similar traits. If anything, this is more a symptom of survival of the fittest. An evolutionary trait that isn't really required in modern culture but sadly (and as you rightly pointed out) we still do reward those who are ruthless.

taylodl 13y ago

The diplomatic solution would be to have a doctrine of cyber warfare drafted by the U.N. that explicitly states when a cyber warfare attack is an act of war. There would also have to be guidelines of evidence that a state was sponsoring or had knowledge of but failed to control these acts. Unless and until such a resolution is adopted there's very little we can do other than incorporate cyber warfare defense as a component of our overall national defense.

pyre 13y ago
- The US might not like these because then they can't send malware into Iran to disrupt their nuclear program. - Tracing the 'real' source of an attack can be difficult. E.g. what if it's only being routed through China? - This would only encourage a more 'locked down' Internet. Reducing the current open-ness of the Internet, and putting up strict national boundaries in order to make it easier to control/find attacks leaving your country so that they don't trigger a war.
- waps 13y ago
  Furthermore, would an American population really support -say- a nuclear attack on China because certain information was compromised, or because the lights went out in America for a few days ? A week ? Fat chance. Would such an attack stop the cyber attack ? Probably not. Disconnect from the internet ? Not an option for any trade-based nation, plus also unlikely to stop the cyber attacks. First lesson in international law - there is no international law, because the actors involved are sovereign and only prolonged warfare can -sometimes- dislodge them, at massive cost. So open violations of international treaties, even on large scale, are let go without consequences. Say, for example, something between legal discrimination (at minimum denial of religious freedom, article 2 UNHR) and religious genocide is happening in most/all muslim countries (with countries like Morocco and Turkey "merely" discriminating and Sudan, Pakistan and Bangladesh regularly being accused of large-scale state-sponsored religious genocide). And it's not like most of those countries are even a real military threat. For China the question may be simpler, of course. It is certainly, shall we say, "absorbing" a few of it's neighbors. Again, what are you going to do ?
- 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

lmg643 13y ago

1) My company started getting spam hits a few days ago on our "request a demo" page and they have not let up. I am guessing they are related, only because of timing. The attacks seem super lame to me - random emails, garbage messages, over and over. But I guess there are companies out there with weak security and those are the ones who will wind up giving up information. 2) Reading about this, I am wondering whether the attacks are so clumsy and obvious that the nuisance factor makes them newsworthy. Either that, or perhaps someone wants to drum up antagonism against China. America's allies spy on the US constantly, sometimes with incredibly damaging effects. The Jonathan Pollard case comes to mind.

state 13y ago
We have been experiencing the same thing. Aggressive SSH logins and abusive crawling of URLs. The timing is really, really weird.
- kyllo 13y ago
  Do you think they're just using some kind of automated penetration testing software like Metasploit?
anExcitedBeast 13y ago
I doubt you're dealing with these guys. The original APT1 report seems to indicate the bad guys are a little more clever with their phishing, and I doubt they would get sloppier post report.

16s 13y ago

Many of these security Companies are like preachers. They need a devil so that they can sell their salvation. China seems to be the devil right now. In a few years, it'll be something or someone else.

anExcitedBeast 13y ago
Exterminators need roaches, too. Just because someone stands to profit doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

knodi 13y ago

What happens when an this kind of attack originates from US, attaching Chinese state agency or company? Is are people/person involved prosecuted?

ExpiredLink 13y ago

I hope the Chinese didn't find evidence for weapons of mass destruction in the US. Otherwise ...

flagnog 13y ago

I say the response should be pretty simple: a statement that, when the economic damage reaches a certain level, we repudiate all Chinese owned debt. Then start running a countdown.