5 ms·

It amazes me that people aren't revolting over this - how is this not considered comparable to slavery on an utterly massive and unprecedented scale?

kaonashi 13y ago
Because it's rare that white middle/upper class people are subjected to it.
- pyre 13y ago
  More like, because it's happening to someone that is: a) 'one of us' and b) he's someone high profile, that is attempting to remain so even after going to prison. I have a feeling that if Weev was black or Asian it would still be a big deal to us[1]. I don't remember hearing much about Kevin Mitnik's issues with his jailers. I'm sure he had at least some. [1] Though there is the remote possibility that it would be cared about 'less' because it would be seen as racial discrimination rather than just out right maliciousness, but I'm optimistic that this wouldn't be the case.
  - err_badprocrast 13y ago
    "White middle/upper class" are statistically much less likely to be personally affected by these prison policies. Nothing about Weev's treatment is unusual; it's just that nobody cares when it happens to "normal criminals" who are disproportionately not white or rich. Humans are likely to ignore a problem that doesn't affect anyone they know or identify with.
    - pyre 13y ago
      | Humans are likely to ignore a problem that | doesn't affect anyone they know or identify | with. That's what I was trying to hit on with 'one of us.' That we (the HN crowd) care mostly because he's part of the 'techno elite' so to speak. Less so because he's white/middle-class. It just happens that the 'techno elite' is (seemingly) disproportionately white (not sure about middle-class). It also doesn't hurt that we see him as a bit of a martyr because he got a prison sentence that we don't feel fit the crime (and therefore feel that he's drawn the ire of 'the man' so to speak).
tantalor 13y ago
Prisoners generally are not sympathized with.
downandout 13y ago
This has been going on for decades and virtually every aspect of prisoner treatment has been challenged through civil rights lawsuits against the government. Not surprisingly, the government wins nearly all of these cases, and most are thrown out long before trial. No one - not the public, judges, politicians, or the media - seems to care. In the eyes of most, prisoners are, well, prisoners.
cynicalkane 13y ago
I would differ on the claim that this is an "unprecedented level of slavery". I can think of a precedent level of slavery in U.S. history.
- antihero 13y ago
  IIRC there are more blacks in the US prison system then there ever were slaves under slavery: http://globalgrind.com/news/more-black-men-prison-system-today-slaves-1850-secret-our-success-michael-skolnik-blog http://globalgrind.com/news/more-black-men-prison-system-tod...
- rangibaby 13y ago
  The way I grokked is that this is the first thing really comparable to slavery since it "officially" ended. It's not a novel opinion; blacks are incarcerated at six times the level of whites (1). http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - Shivetya 13y ago
    http://libertyfight.com/2013/New_York_City_Crime_stats_based_on_race.html http://libertyfight.com/2013/New_York_City_Crime_stats_based... Statistics are what you make them, considering that blacks are more likely to victims of violence to other blacks, when they are not the majority, how can the outcome of incarceration rates be remedied?
    - bdisraeli 13y ago
      Most people in the prison system are there for non-violent offenses. [1] In Chicago, blacks were arrested (before decriminalisation last year) for cannabis consumption at a rate of 15 persons for every 1 white person despite similar rates of cannabis consumption among blacks and whites. [2] People who have gone to prison for any of offense have a 40% chance of eventually going back to prison. [3] I would suggest that the change in incarceration rates starts with less racist policing. [1] http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1118 http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1118 [2] http://m.chicagoreader.com/chicago/chicago-marijuana-arrest-statistics/Content?oid=4198958 http://m.chicagoreader.com/chicago/chicago-marijuana-arrest-... [3] http://reason.com/archives/2011/06/08/prison-math http://reason.com/archives/2011/06/08/prison-math
JulianMorrison 13y ago
Slavery is legal in prison. Yes, you should be revolting over this.
ap22213 13y ago
Well, because it's prison. By historical standards, this is pretty mild. I'd like to know why we have so many awful laws on the books. Seems like we have so many, that most of us could be locked up, if they happen to irk the wrong people.
- WildUtah 13y ago
  I'd like to know why we have so many awful laws on the books. Seems like we have so many, that most of us could be locked up, if they happen to irk the wrong people. Conveniently answering your own question.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  There seems to be a variety of reasons. Two that come to mind: - No matter how well you write it, it seems that law will always be subject to a certain degree of interpretation. You could even argue that good law intentionally leaves room for interpretation- see "reasonable person" clauses. This is because people are not black and white, and society changes over time. - Some laws probably really are too broad, left that way to ensure you can pin people. As always when this subject comes up, I recall Al Capone, who was brought in on tax evasion (not mobstering)
- notmarkus 13y ago
  "Cop on the beat: the last true dictatorship in America." -- Jimmy McNulty (paraphrased). When you have so many laws, everyone is a criminal. And when everyone is a criminal, those enforcing the laws become the ones who make them. Why is the speed limit still laughably low in most of the country? Most drivers are consistently driving 10-15 mph over the speed limit, at least where I live. It gives cops the ability to pull you over whenever they see fit.
  - stinkytaco 13y ago
    Yeah, but no one goes to jail for speeding. And they can already pull you over whenever they want. This is how they catch dunk drivers. Swerving, driving too fast for conditions, driving erratically or all sorts of other subjective terms. They can set up a checkpoint and pull you over just because. Speed limits are really the least of it and don't serve your argument well. Edit: I want to point out that I've defended speed limits here before because speed limits, like building codes, are created by engineers, not some arbitrary big government conspiracy. Like most laws, they are well thought out and for everyone's safety.
wmt 13y ago
Have you read the Thirteenth Amendment which abolished slavery? Not only are prisoners comparable to slaves, they are slaves. "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction"
smutticus 13y ago
It is basically slavery when you get someone's labor without paying them for it. Here are some interesting things to read if you want to know more. Good general overview of prison labor: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor-and-taxpayer-dollars/ http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor... More detailed account of prison labor in Nevada regarding casinos and construction. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ The slave market: http://www.unicor.gov/ http://www.unicor.gov/ You can even get slave labor to operate your call center: http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/ http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/

kaonashi 13y ago

Because it's rare that white middle/upper class people are subjected to it.

pyre 13y ago
More like, because it's happening to someone that is: a) 'one of us' and b) he's someone high profile, that is attempting to remain so even after going to prison. I have a feeling that if Weev was black or Asian it would still be a big deal to us[1]. I don't remember hearing much about Kevin Mitnik's issues with his jailers. I'm sure he had at least some. [1] Though there is the remote possibility that it would be cared about 'less' because it would be seen as racial discrimination rather than just out right maliciousness, but I'm optimistic that this wouldn't be the case.
- err_badprocrast 13y ago
  "White middle/upper class" are statistically much less likely to be personally affected by these prison policies. Nothing about Weev's treatment is unusual; it's just that nobody cares when it happens to "normal criminals" who are disproportionately not white or rich. Humans are likely to ignore a problem that doesn't affect anyone they know or identify with.
  - pyre 13y ago
    | Humans are likely to ignore a problem that | doesn't affect anyone they know or identify | with. That's what I was trying to hit on with 'one of us.' That we (the HN crowd) care mostly because he's part of the 'techno elite' so to speak. Less so because he's white/middle-class. It just happens that the 'techno elite' is (seemingly) disproportionately white (not sure about middle-class). It also doesn't hurt that we see him as a bit of a martyr because he got a prison sentence that we don't feel fit the crime (and therefore feel that he's drawn the ire of 'the man' so to speak).

tantalor 13y ago

Prisoners generally are not sympathized with.

downandout 13y ago

This has been going on for decades and virtually every aspect of prisoner treatment has been challenged through civil rights lawsuits against the government. Not surprisingly, the government wins nearly all of these cases, and most are thrown out long before trial. No one - not the public, judges, politicians, or the media - seems to care. In the eyes of most, prisoners are, well, prisoners.

cynicalkane 13y ago

I would differ on the claim that this is an "unprecedented level of slavery". I can think of a precedent level of slavery in U.S. history.

antihero 13y ago
IIRC there are more blacks in the US prison system then there ever were slaves under slavery: http://globalgrind.com/news/more-black-men-prison-system-today-slaves-1850-secret-our-success-michael-skolnik-blog http://globalgrind.com/news/more-black-men-prison-system-tod...
rangibaby 13y ago
The way I grokked is that this is the first thing really comparable to slavery since it "officially" ended. It's not a novel opinion; blacks are incarcerated at six times the level of whites (1). http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Shivetya 13y ago
  http://libertyfight.com/2013/New_York_City_Crime_stats_based_on_race.html http://libertyfight.com/2013/New_York_City_Crime_stats_based... Statistics are what you make them, considering that blacks are more likely to victims of violence to other blacks, when they are not the majority, how can the outcome of incarceration rates be remedied?
  - bdisraeli 13y ago
    Most people in the prison system are there for non-violent offenses. [1] In Chicago, blacks were arrested (before decriminalisation last year) for cannabis consumption at a rate of 15 persons for every 1 white person despite similar rates of cannabis consumption among blacks and whites. [2] People who have gone to prison for any of offense have a 40% chance of eventually going back to prison. [3] I would suggest that the change in incarceration rates starts with less racist policing. [1] http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1118 http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1118 [2] http://m.chicagoreader.com/chicago/chicago-marijuana-arrest-statistics/Content?oid=4198958 http://m.chicagoreader.com/chicago/chicago-marijuana-arrest-... [3] http://reason.com/archives/2011/06/08/prison-math http://reason.com/archives/2011/06/08/prison-math

JulianMorrison 13y ago

Slavery is legal in prison. Yes, you should be revolting over this.

ap22213 13y ago

Well, because it's prison. By historical standards, this is pretty mild. I'd like to know why we have so many awful laws on the books. Seems like we have so many, that most of us could be locked up, if they happen to irk the wrong people.

WildUtah 13y ago
I'd like to know why we have so many awful laws on the books. Seems like we have so many, that most of us could be locked up, if they happen to irk the wrong people. Conveniently answering your own question.
sliverstorm 13y ago
There seems to be a variety of reasons. Two that come to mind: - No matter how well you write it, it seems that law will always be subject to a certain degree of interpretation. You could even argue that good law intentionally leaves room for interpretation- see "reasonable person" clauses. This is because people are not black and white, and society changes over time. - Some laws probably really are too broad, left that way to ensure you can pin people. As always when this subject comes up, I recall Al Capone, who was brought in on tax evasion (not mobstering)
notmarkus 13y ago
"Cop on the beat: the last true dictatorship in America." -- Jimmy McNulty (paraphrased). When you have so many laws, everyone is a criminal. And when everyone is a criminal, those enforcing the laws become the ones who make them. Why is the speed limit still laughably low in most of the country? Most drivers are consistently driving 10-15 mph over the speed limit, at least where I live. It gives cops the ability to pull you over whenever they see fit.
- stinkytaco 13y ago
  Yeah, but no one goes to jail for speeding. And they can already pull you over whenever they want. This is how they catch dunk drivers. Swerving, driving too fast for conditions, driving erratically or all sorts of other subjective terms. They can set up a checkpoint and pull you over just because. Speed limits are really the least of it and don't serve your argument well. Edit: I want to point out that I've defended speed limits here before because speed limits, like building codes, are created by engineers, not some arbitrary big government conspiracy. Like most laws, they are well thought out and for everyone's safety.

wmt 13y ago

Have you read the Thirteenth Amendment which abolished slavery? Not only are prisoners comparable to slaves, they are slaves. "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction"

smutticus 13y ago

It is basically slavery when you get someone's labor without paying them for it. Here are some interesting things to read if you want to know more. Good general overview of prison labor: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor-and-taxpayer-dollars/ http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor... More detailed account of prison labor in Nevada regarding casinos and construction. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ The slave market: http://www.unicor.gov/ http://www.unicor.gov/ You can even get slave labor to operate your call center: http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/ http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/