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I won't go into the war in general since I'm no expert on world war 2 but I can tell you that I've heard enough stories of Nazi brutality in the camps to know t

I won't go into the war in general since I'm no expert on world war 2 but I can tell you that I've heard enough stories of Nazi brutality in the camps to know that, at least in exterminating undesirables, they were good. Real good. The gas chambers and crematoriums at Auschwitz worked like clockwork. There was, at all times, a line, a group in preparation for entry, a group in the gas chambers themselves and the crematoriums were working 24/7. It was, for all intents and purposes, a death factory. That's the real point to make about Nazi efficiency - they weren't more efficient than, say, the average factory but what they were doing (murdering people) was never done in such a factory-like manner, hence the semblance of efficiency.

eru 13y ago
> [...] but what they were doing (murdering people) was never done in such a factory-like manner, [...] I'd like to believe that, but I am afraid you are underestimating human brutality in general.
- MichaelAza 13y ago
  I have yet to see another example. Can you provide one?
  - eru 13y ago
    I had mostly the Soviet Union, Communist China and North Korea in mind. Of these, the Soviet Union started there atrocities earlier than Nazi Germany. Some quick web searching gave e.g. this somewhat tasteless list (http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-horrific-genocides-in-history.php http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-horrific-genocides-in-his...). (The treatment itself is bearable, but just the idea of a top ten of genocides makes me cringe.) Wikipedia has an article as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history The USA was pretty determined in killing off the natives. Even though they never seemed to have industrialized the process.
    - MichaelAza 13y ago
      The Soviet Union was never very industrial about the whole thing. They had camps and all but you can hardly compare a Gulag and a Nazi extermination camp. Gulags were prisons, basically. Extermination camps were... well, extermination camps. China and the DPRK are, to my knowledge, more akin to the Soviet model. People were (and are, in the case of China and the DPRK) dying but it's hardly the arrival-stripping-death sequence of a Nazi camp. In some camps you'd be dead within an hour of arrival. That's crazy efficient and isn't a characteristic of the Soviet, Chinese or Korean camps (to the best of my knowledge)
      - gurkendoktor 13y ago
        Of course it's hard to discuss what's happening inside of China, but this article makes it seem that the Chinese are efficient because they need organs: http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/xinjiang-procedure_610145.html http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/xinjiang-procedure_61... It's the only source for large-scale organ harvest I have found except of course Falun Gong, which I still don't know what to make of.
        MichaelAza 13y ago
        Yeah, I guess we won't really know whats going on in China until it's all in retrospect, eh?
    - philwelch 13y ago
      Sure there were larger and more brutal genocides than that of the Nazis, but the Holocaust was uniquely factory-like in its execution. Every single concentration camp inmate was numbered, processed, seen by a doctor, and tracked on a daily basis.
    - bayesianhorse 13y ago
      It's actually hard to get humans to kill other humans with intent and close-up, as can be seen in various examples over history. To kill a few million Humans in short time, shooting was no option. The gas chambers were not much more efficient, but the murderers didn't have to look their victims in the eyes. They were not forced to recognize them as Humans. The story about US and native Americans was completely different. Most deaths occurred from disease and circumstances brought on by settlers and colonists. Many other native Americans were killed while raiding white settlers, or in retribution for raids. It's easier to kill a human being when he is trying to kill you. A lot of harm has been done to native Americans, but the scale, motives and methods were completely different.

eru 13y ago

> [...] but what they were doing (murdering people) was never done in such a factory-like manner, [...] I'd like to believe that, but I am afraid you are underestimating human brutality in general.

MichaelAza 13y ago
I have yet to see another example. Can you provide one?
- eru 13y ago
  I had mostly the Soviet Union, Communist China and North Korea in mind. Of these, the Soviet Union started there atrocities earlier than Nazi Germany. Some quick web searching gave e.g. this somewhat tasteless list (http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-horrific-genocides-in-history.php http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-horrific-genocides-in-his...). (The treatment itself is bearable, but just the idea of a top ten of genocides makes me cringe.) Wikipedia has an article as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history The USA was pretty determined in killing off the natives. Even though they never seemed to have industrialized the process.
  - MichaelAza 13y ago
    The Soviet Union was never very industrial about the whole thing. They had camps and all but you can hardly compare a Gulag and a Nazi extermination camp. Gulags were prisons, basically. Extermination camps were... well, extermination camps. China and the DPRK are, to my knowledge, more akin to the Soviet model. People were (and are, in the case of China and the DPRK) dying but it's hardly the arrival-stripping-death sequence of a Nazi camp. In some camps you'd be dead within an hour of arrival. That's crazy efficient and isn't a characteristic of the Soviet, Chinese or Korean camps (to the best of my knowledge)
    - gurkendoktor 13y ago
      Of course it's hard to discuss what's happening inside of China, but this article makes it seem that the Chinese are efficient because they need organs: http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/xinjiang-procedure_610145.html http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/xinjiang-procedure_61... It's the only source for large-scale organ harvest I have found except of course Falun Gong, which I still don't know what to make of.
      - MichaelAza 13y ago
        Yeah, I guess we won't really know whats going on in China until it's all in retrospect, eh?
  - philwelch 13y ago
    Sure there were larger and more brutal genocides than that of the Nazis, but the Holocaust was uniquely factory-like in its execution. Every single concentration camp inmate was numbered, processed, seen by a doctor, and tracked on a daily basis.
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    It's actually hard to get humans to kill other humans with intent and close-up, as can be seen in various examples over history. To kill a few million Humans in short time, shooting was no option. The gas chambers were not much more efficient, but the murderers didn't have to look their victims in the eyes. They were not forced to recognize them as Humans. The story about US and native Americans was completely different. Most deaths occurred from disease and circumstances brought on by settlers and colonists. Many other native Americans were killed while raiding white settlers, or in retribution for raids. It's easier to kill a human being when he is trying to kill you. A lot of harm has been done to native Americans, but the scale, motives and methods were completely different.