5 ms·

This simplistic 'snap out of it' ideology belies and belittles the very real issues of fear, discouragement and depression that underly much of what people bera

This simplistic 'snap out of it' ideology belies and belittles the very real issues of fear, discouragement and depression that underly much of what people berate themselves over as 'laziness'.

ctdonath 13y ago
But "snap out of it" is exactly it. The person must make the choice to do, regardless of any array of fears, disabilities, circumstances, or excuses. No matter how real the issues, it still is a matter of choice. Skirting death can clarify this. Do or do not. There is no try.
- oblique63 13y ago
  Something about this stance has always bothered me. I don't know if it's just me, but I have always just seen this as condescending because 'having a choice' has always been blatantly obvious to me. I will immediately take that back and apologize if a majority of people really don't realize this, but so far it has always seemed like most people give rather 'meh' reactions to these sorts of responses because you're not providing them with any new information -- which is exactly my gripe. In my opinion, saying "Hey! it's all about making a choice, so just make it already!" is not a valid solution strategy imo; it is barely a rosy incomplete pseudocode algorithm -- not something actionable/reproducible. I really strongly feel that anything that is going to be conveyed with a tone of "Hey, I just gave you a solution!" should be backed up with an actionable mechanism/solution. But that's probably just me...
  - joelrunyon 13y ago
    If you're trying to learn how to walk, what's more helpful: learning the mechanics of how you walk & why we're physically capable of doing it or telling you to just start putting one foot in front of the other. If you want to do something (anything), you can break down actionable mechanisms all you want, but at some point it has to move from theoretical into action. It's tougher with this stuff (lazyness) because it's all in your head - it's less physical - so it seems like you could hypothetically break something down into a million actionable steps - so people do and keep wondering why it never leads to action. That's the very trap you have to escape in order to DO something. I can tell you all the mechanics in the world on how you're supposed to walk, but until you put one foot in front of the other, you'll never be able to learn. That's not condescending at all - it's just the process of learning. All the knowledge in the world won't help someone who's not willing to take that step.
    - oblique63 13y ago
      This is true, but I feel we need to try harder before reaching this conclusion that "oh, it's inherently too theoretical/has too many solutions, so you're just going to have to figure it out by yourself". Because even in the scenario that it did have too many possible solutions, wouldn't it be more helpful to provide at least one in addition to the theory? I think it would, as long as you make it clear that there are other possibilities out there and that this particular solution might not work for you. The crux of the issue for me, is that intelligence research (to my rather limited knowledge) seems to be converging on the idea that people have different inherent [genetic?] constraints on learning ability. Not learning capacity mind you, just that it might be more challenging for certain subsets of people to understand quantum physics (for example) than others, and that that could be traced back to how much 'actionable' material they are exposed to -- if they're not exposed to enough, then they could easily be left behind and be blamed for not 'choosing' to get it. This is what bothers me. Especially since I know I often find myself struggling for ages with things that other people seem to grasp with significantly less information than I needed to 'get it'.
    - WalterSear 13y ago
      You can break it down ad infinitum, but if the real reason you can't do something is that you are afraid to, or you don't actually believe it's possible, then no amount of Nike slogans will make a difference. And furthermore, the implication is that, if they don't get up off their ass, it's their fault, and not something in their environment (including their internal one) that can be changed, and is what they should be actually focusing on.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - alanfalcon 13y ago
    "Just do it"/"Snap out of it" is exactly the key that I've used to get going whenever I've stalled in life. Heck, it's the key I used back in Jr. High when I was an average runner and decided that today I wanted to win the race (literally, mid-race, I started running faster, actually pushing off the ground and propelling myself forward rather than going through the running motions as I had previously in my life—obviously there are physical limits to how fast one can run, but it was a revelation to me that I could run about twice as fast as I ever had if I just decided to try). Recently I've been in a rut, feeling malaise, and this morning I told myself that I was done and I just needed to snap out of it and do something about it and I've had the most productive day I've had in a couple years. So, sure, maybe it's not universal. And maybe the advice itself isn't so useful because it's not hearing the obvious advice that you need, it's a decision you simply have to make (and nobody need tell you to make it). But it's still truth. And there's never harm in espousing truths like that one (IMO).
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - ams6110 13y ago
      What are you doing here commenting on an HN thread if you're having such a productive day ;-)
    - Paul_D_Santana 13y ago
      Excellent comment. Thank you for this. I'll keep this in mind next time I'm losing steam through a particularly tough CrossFit WOD. "Today, I want to win." Amazing. Thank you. +1
- drumdance 13y ago
  The "choice to do" is located in the brain. If the brain is malfunctioning this choice can be very difficult. People with severe depression, anxiety, OCD often have malfunctioning brains. In my case depression usually manifests as extreme fatigue coupled with disinterest in everything. Choosing to do anything is very difficult if nothing has meaning.
  - WalterSear 13y ago
    What have you found that helps?
    - drumdance 13y ago
      I've tried various medications over the years. The best one for me was Zoloft, which also helped my sister. More recently I've been taking a nutrition based approach. I went off Zoloft in January, had an episode in late March/early April, then went to see a nutritional therapist. It seems to be working so far. In my case, though, I was also diagnosed with adrenal fatigue a couple years ago and have been taking supplements to help with that. Adrenal fatigue is a controversial diagnosis (some people think it's a made-up "disease") but a saliva test indicated I had low cortisol in the morning, which made it very difficult for me to get going before noon. The supplements helped with that even after I weened myself off caffeine.
kinleyd 13y ago
"This simplistic 'snap out of it' ideology" lies at the heart of Buddhism. It is neither ideology nor simplistic.
- virtualwhys 13y ago
  What is this Buddhism that you speak of? Put another way, what is Buddha? Given the epoch, it's not even clear that all of the teachings attributed to the Buddha derive from one being (i.e. Buddhism is the evolution of a core teaching that has become an ism). IIRC, from the Diamond Sutra: a cloud, a flash of lightening, a dew drop, a star...view all created things like this. If that doesn't divert one's attention from sex, beer, or a pint of Ben & Jerry's, nothing will ;-)
  - kinleyd 13y ago
    True, Buddhism is no different from Hinduism, Christism, Muhammadism or any other ism in that it cannot escape the additions to the core teachings. Errors in narration, translation and interpretation all contribute to giving one a good reason to take what is passed down with healthy skepticism. IMHO, the Buddhist recommendation to exercise this type of necessary skepticism is to try it out, to experience it. If your experience confirms what the received wisdom is said to be, you are probably on the right track. Of course, there are lots of other basics, including the most basic of all - get a good teacher. Needless to say, the meaning of "good" in this respect always requires a modicum of circumspection. :) Yup, there's lots of stuff like those you mentioned to divert your attention. The idea is to give you a reason to get started. In this case I'd say something like Nike's Just Do It as mentioned in some of the other threads is a tad overconfident. The Buddhist way would more likely be Life is Short. Just Get Started.
    - virtualwhys 13y ago
      Playing a bit of devil's advocate here: why the need for a teacher? Buddha: "No teacher have I" Jesus: "Know thyself" I'm not convinced there is a "Buddhist way", but rather ways. I mean, Vipasana is almost entirely technique oriented, apparently following the historical Buddha's extant teaching to the letter. Tibetans do a boatload of visualization, while Zen tends to emphasize open eyed sitting and posture without any focal point. Same deal in Christianity, Islam, etc., many ways. And yet, mystics like Ramana Maharshi, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle, etc. all say, dispense with practice and teachers, these are extraneous to the fundamental matter. For Tolle it was rock bottom chronic depression; for Maharshi it was some kind of death experience, and for Krishnamurti it was talking a lot (heh, heh, kidding, he was apparently born without the sense of "I").

This simplistic 'snap out of it' ideology belies and belittles the very real issues of fear, discouragement and depression that underly much of what people berate themselves over as 'laziness'.

ctdonath 13y ago

But "snap out of it" is exactly it. The person must make the choice to do, regardless of any array of fears, disabilities, circumstances, or excuses. No matter how real the issues, it still is a matter of choice. Skirting death can clarify this. Do or do not. There is no try.

oblique63 13y ago
Something about this stance has always bothered me. I don't know if it's just me, but I have always just seen this as condescending because 'having a choice' has always been blatantly obvious to me. I will immediately take that back and apologize if a majority of people really don't realize this, but so far it has always seemed like most people give rather 'meh' reactions to these sorts of responses because you're not providing them with any new information -- which is exactly my gripe. In my opinion, saying "Hey! it's all about making a choice, so just make it already!" is not a valid solution strategy imo; it is barely a rosy incomplete pseudocode algorithm -- not something actionable/reproducible. I really strongly feel that anything that is going to be conveyed with a tone of "Hey, I just gave you a solution!" should be backed up with an actionable mechanism/solution. But that's probably just me...
- joelrunyon 13y ago
  If you're trying to learn how to walk, what's more helpful: learning the mechanics of how you walk & why we're physically capable of doing it or telling you to just start putting one foot in front of the other. If you want to do something (anything), you can break down actionable mechanisms all you want, but at some point it has to move from theoretical into action. It's tougher with this stuff (lazyness) because it's all in your head - it's less physical - so it seems like you could hypothetically break something down into a million actionable steps - so people do and keep wondering why it never leads to action. That's the very trap you have to escape in order to DO something. I can tell you all the mechanics in the world on how you're supposed to walk, but until you put one foot in front of the other, you'll never be able to learn. That's not condescending at all - it's just the process of learning. All the knowledge in the world won't help someone who's not willing to take that step.
  - oblique63 13y ago
    This is true, but I feel we need to try harder before reaching this conclusion that "oh, it's inherently too theoretical/has too many solutions, so you're just going to have to figure it out by yourself". Because even in the scenario that it did have too many possible solutions, wouldn't it be more helpful to provide at least one in addition to the theory? I think it would, as long as you make it clear that there are other possibilities out there and that this particular solution might not work for you. The crux of the issue for me, is that intelligence research (to my rather limited knowledge) seems to be converging on the idea that people have different inherent [genetic?] constraints on learning ability. Not learning capacity mind you, just that it might be more challenging for certain subsets of people to understand quantum physics (for example) than others, and that that could be traced back to how much 'actionable' material they are exposed to -- if they're not exposed to enough, then they could easily be left behind and be blamed for not 'choosing' to get it. This is what bothers me. Especially since I know I often find myself struggling for ages with things that other people seem to grasp with significantly less information than I needed to 'get it'.
  - WalterSear 13y ago
    You can break it down ad infinitum, but if the real reason you can't do something is that you are afraid to, or you don't actually believe it's possible, then no amount of Nike slogans will make a difference. And furthermore, the implication is that, if they don't get up off their ass, it's their fault, and not something in their environment (including their internal one) that can be changed, and is what they should be actually focusing on.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- alanfalcon 13y ago
  "Just do it"/"Snap out of it" is exactly the key that I've used to get going whenever I've stalled in life. Heck, it's the key I used back in Jr. High when I was an average runner and decided that today I wanted to win the race (literally, mid-race, I started running faster, actually pushing off the ground and propelling myself forward rather than going through the running motions as I had previously in my life—obviously there are physical limits to how fast one can run, but it was a revelation to me that I could run about twice as fast as I ever had if I just decided to try). Recently I've been in a rut, feeling malaise, and this morning I told myself that I was done and I just needed to snap out of it and do something about it and I've had the most productive day I've had in a couple years. So, sure, maybe it's not universal. And maybe the advice itself isn't so useful because it's not hearing the obvious advice that you need, it's a decision you simply have to make (and nobody need tell you to make it). But it's still truth. And there's never harm in espousing truths like that one (IMO).
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - ams6110 13y ago
    What are you doing here commenting on an HN thread if you're having such a productive day ;-)
  - Paul_D_Santana 13y ago
    Excellent comment. Thank you for this. I'll keep this in mind next time I'm losing steam through a particularly tough CrossFit WOD. "Today, I want to win." Amazing. Thank you. +1
drumdance 13y ago
The "choice to do" is located in the brain. If the brain is malfunctioning this choice can be very difficult. People with severe depression, anxiety, OCD often have malfunctioning brains. In my case depression usually manifests as extreme fatigue coupled with disinterest in everything. Choosing to do anything is very difficult if nothing has meaning.
- WalterSear 13y ago
  What have you found that helps?
  - drumdance 13y ago
    I've tried various medications over the years. The best one for me was Zoloft, which also helped my sister. More recently I've been taking a nutrition based approach. I went off Zoloft in January, had an episode in late March/early April, then went to see a nutritional therapist. It seems to be working so far. In my case, though, I was also diagnosed with adrenal fatigue a couple years ago and have been taking supplements to help with that. Adrenal fatigue is a controversial diagnosis (some people think it's a made-up "disease") but a saliva test indicated I had low cortisol in the morning, which made it very difficult for me to get going before noon. The supplements helped with that even after I weened myself off caffeine.

kinleyd 13y ago

"This simplistic 'snap out of it' ideology" lies at the heart of Buddhism. It is neither ideology nor simplistic.

virtualwhys 13y ago
What is this Buddhism that you speak of? Put another way, what is Buddha? Given the epoch, it's not even clear that all of the teachings attributed to the Buddha derive from one being (i.e. Buddhism is the evolution of a core teaching that has become an ism). IIRC, from the Diamond Sutra: a cloud, a flash of lightening, a dew drop, a star...view all created things like this. If that doesn't divert one's attention from sex, beer, or a pint of Ben & Jerry's, nothing will ;-)
- kinleyd 13y ago
  True, Buddhism is no different from Hinduism, Christism, Muhammadism or any other ism in that it cannot escape the additions to the core teachings. Errors in narration, translation and interpretation all contribute to giving one a good reason to take what is passed down with healthy skepticism. IMHO, the Buddhist recommendation to exercise this type of necessary skepticism is to try it out, to experience it. If your experience confirms what the received wisdom is said to be, you are probably on the right track. Of course, there are lots of other basics, including the most basic of all - get a good teacher. Needless to say, the meaning of "good" in this respect always requires a modicum of circumspection. :) Yup, there's lots of stuff like those you mentioned to divert your attention. The idea is to give you a reason to get started. In this case I'd say something like Nike's Just Do It as mentioned in some of the other threads is a tad overconfident. The Buddhist way would more likely be Life is Short. Just Get Started.
  - virtualwhys 13y ago
    Playing a bit of devil's advocate here: why the need for a teacher? Buddha: "No teacher have I" Jesus: "Know thyself" I'm not convinced there is a "Buddhist way", but rather ways. I mean, Vipasana is almost entirely technique oriented, apparently following the historical Buddha's extant teaching to the letter. Tibetans do a boatload of visualization, while Zen tends to emphasize open eyed sitting and posture without any focal point. Same deal in Christianity, Islam, etc., many ways. And yet, mystics like Ramana Maharshi, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle, etc. all say, dispense with practice and teachers, these are extraneous to the fundamental matter. For Tolle it was rock bottom chronic depression; for Maharshi it was some kind of death experience, and for Krishnamurti it was talking a lot (heh, heh, kidding, he was apparently born without the sense of "I").