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Check out the book 'The Little Schemer'. Good way to ease your mind into functional programming. Also consider learning a dynamic 'scripting' language like Rub

Check out the book 'The Little Schemer'. Good way to ease your mind into functional programming. Also consider learning a dynamic 'scripting' language like Ruby or Python. They have some functional aspects, and will teach you programming style and idioms that you probably haven't picked up from Java and C.

alanthonyc 17y ago
I concur. The big advantage to picking up one of these Lisp-like languages (rather than Lisp itself) is that with their corresponding web-frameworks (Rails and Django), you will be able to put up some pretty cool apps pretty quickly. This helps your motivation as well as your bottom line personal ROI (they're both pretty marketable skillsets). I don't think you lose all that much, as far as the experience of picking up a functional paradigm goes. (This last bit is not fully backed up by experience with Lisp on my part.)
- javert 17y ago
  I wouldn't call Rails and Python "Lisp-like languages."
  - silentbicycle 17y ago
    Python's lead designer is actively hostile to this, actually. (And Rails isn't a language, goshdarnit...) Lua is very Scheme-y, though, much the way Javascript is. While I don't use Ruby much (Python and Lua fit that niche for me), it seems more Lisp-y than Python.
    - alanthonyc 17y ago
      Yes, I did read his post about his basing Python more on C and Algol than functional languages. But then he goes on to explain how and why Python got more functional programming features. Also, I based my assumption that Python is "lisp-like" on a statement I remembered from one of PG's essays: "Each one is progressively more like Lisp. Python copies even features that many Lisp hackers consider to be mistakes. You could translate simple Lisp programs into Python line for line." If there is more context to all this that I am missing, then my mistake. Anyway, I wasn't looking to make any detailed comparisons between languages for the OP. I was just saying...hey, Python or something else could be fun to learn...
      - silentbicycle 17y ago
        It's "Lisp-like" in the sense that it's garbage-collected and has an interpreter for incremental development, rather than only being batch-compiled. If PG were a Smalltalk fan, though, he would probably be talking about how every language is getting more Smalltalk-like (the above, plus class-based OO in the core language). It says at least as much about him as it does language design. Python's lambdas are quite a bit less powerful than any Lisp's, and it doesn't have any tail call optimization. It's like, you can kinda sorta do functional programming in C, you just need to recast function pointers and do manual memory allocation. Python is carefully designed to encourage programming in a certain relatively straightforward style, and while you can force some FP techniques into it, it doesn't sit well with the rest of the language, and it's kind of unfair to anybody else who will have to deal with the code down the road. While I don't have much experience working with web frameworks (not my thing at the moment), Python is a very good all-purpose language.
        alanthonyc 17y ago
        I gotcha. Well, I picked up PG's book and was starting on the language, when I came up with a project I wanted to get up and running quickly. So, I figured Django would help me get something going (it was either that or Ruby/Rails). What I failed to ask, I guess is...is there an equivalent web framework for Lisp? I guess I might have gone in that direction if I knew of one.
thomanil 17y ago
Oh and if you plan on doing anything web-related, learn Javascript (properly!) - this will also expose you to functional programming technique. http://javascript.crockford.com/little.html http://javascript.crockford.com/little.html
- hs 17y ago
  or just use jquery it's the lispiest (or fp) framework i used (i used prototype before and it felt like java)
- kqr2 17y ago
  Crockford's "Javascript: The Good Parts" is also a nice little read. http://www.amazon.com/JavaScript-Good-Parts-Douglas-Crockford/dp/0596517742 http://www.amazon.com/JavaScript-Good-Parts-Douglas-Crockfor...
- warfangle 17y ago
  Crockford's videos up over here: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/ http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/ are extremely useful, too. A little bit dry, but he knows his stuff. It's interesting to point out that, while not optimized for it, Javascript (don't think ruby can do this, since you can't pass blocks to blocks) can perform tail recursion: http://warfangled.com/js_examples/fib.js http://warfangled.com/js_examples/fib.js
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  Is there a "Dive into Javascript" like there is a "Dive Into Python"?. The DIP style is by far my favorite way to learn a new language.
simplegeek 17y ago
I've been meaning to read that book, one question, do you really need to know Scheme to be able to read this book? Please enlighten me. Thanks!
- sharkbrainguy 17y ago
  No, the little schemer will teach you scheme, or rather a subset of scheme.
SwellJoe 17y ago
"Also consider learning a dynamic 'scripting' language like Ruby or Python" He mentioned he knows Perl, which is arguably the lispiest of the lot (not in syntax, but in sheer number of lisp-inspired features). But perhaps he "knows" Perl in the way that one who knows how to whip up a one to twenty line script to do something simple but repetitive, and then throw it away.

alanthonyc 17y ago

I concur. The big advantage to picking up one of these Lisp-like languages (rather than Lisp itself) is that with their corresponding web-frameworks (Rails and Django), you will be able to put up some pretty cool apps pretty quickly. This helps your motivation as well as your bottom line personal ROI (they're both pretty marketable skillsets). I don't think you lose all that much, as far as the experience of picking up a functional paradigm goes. (This last bit is not fully backed up by experience with Lisp on my part.)

javert 17y ago
I wouldn't call Rails and Python "Lisp-like languages."
- silentbicycle 17y ago
  Python's lead designer is actively hostile to this, actually. (And Rails isn't a language, goshdarnit...) Lua is very Scheme-y, though, much the way Javascript is. While I don't use Ruby much (Python and Lua fit that niche for me), it seems more Lisp-y than Python.
  - alanthonyc 17y ago
    Yes, I did read his post about his basing Python more on C and Algol than functional languages. But then he goes on to explain how and why Python got more functional programming features. Also, I based my assumption that Python is "lisp-like" on a statement I remembered from one of PG's essays: "Each one is progressively more like Lisp. Python copies even features that many Lisp hackers consider to be mistakes. You could translate simple Lisp programs into Python line for line." If there is more context to all this that I am missing, then my mistake. Anyway, I wasn't looking to make any detailed comparisons between languages for the OP. I was just saying...hey, Python or something else could be fun to learn...
    - silentbicycle 17y ago
      It's "Lisp-like" in the sense that it's garbage-collected and has an interpreter for incremental development, rather than only being batch-compiled. If PG were a Smalltalk fan, though, he would probably be talking about how every language is getting more Smalltalk-like (the above, plus class-based OO in the core language). It says at least as much about him as it does language design. Python's lambdas are quite a bit less powerful than any Lisp's, and it doesn't have any tail call optimization. It's like, you can kinda sorta do functional programming in C, you just need to recast function pointers and do manual memory allocation. Python is carefully designed to encourage programming in a certain relatively straightforward style, and while you can force some FP techniques into it, it doesn't sit well with the rest of the language, and it's kind of unfair to anybody else who will have to deal with the code down the road. While I don't have much experience working with web frameworks (not my thing at the moment), Python is a very good all-purpose language.
      - alanthonyc 17y ago
        I gotcha. Well, I picked up PG's book and was starting on the language, when I came up with a project I wanted to get up and running quickly. So, I figured Django would help me get something going (it was either that or Ruby/Rails). What I failed to ask, I guess is...is there an equivalent web framework for Lisp? I guess I might have gone in that direction if I knew of one.

thomanil 17y ago

Oh and if you plan on doing anything web-related, learn Javascript (properly!) - this will also expose you to functional programming technique. http://javascript.crockford.com/little.html http://javascript.crockford.com/little.html

hs 17y ago
or just use jquery it's the lispiest (or fp) framework i used (i used prototype before and it felt like java)
kqr2 17y ago
Crockford's "Javascript: The Good Parts" is also a nice little read. http://www.amazon.com/JavaScript-Good-Parts-Douglas-Crockford/dp/0596517742 http://www.amazon.com/JavaScript-Good-Parts-Douglas-Crockfor...
warfangle 17y ago
Crockford's videos up over here: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/ http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/ are extremely useful, too. A little bit dry, but he knows his stuff. It's interesting to point out that, while not optimized for it, Javascript (don't think ruby can do this, since you can't pass blocks to blocks) can perform tail recursion: http://warfangled.com/js_examples/fib.js http://warfangled.com/js_examples/fib.js
jacoblyles 17y ago
Is there a "Dive into Javascript" like there is a "Dive Into Python"?. The DIP style is by far my favorite way to learn a new language.

simplegeek 17y ago

I've been meaning to read that book, one question, do you really need to know Scheme to be able to read this book? Please enlighten me. Thanks!

sharkbrainguy 17y ago
No, the little schemer will teach you scheme, or rather a subset of scheme.

SwellJoe 17y ago

"Also consider learning a dynamic 'scripting' language like Ruby or Python" He mentioned he knows Perl, which is arguably the lispiest of the lot (not in syntax, but in sheer number of lisp-inspired features). But perhaps he "knows" Perl in the way that one who knows how to whip up a one to twenty line script to do something simple but repetitive, and then throw it away.