9 ms·

Skip college and become a plumber: Mayor Bloomberg

cimorene12 13y ago
Laurence Kotlikoff is really famous for his claim that plumbers actually lead pretty good lives. He says that a general practitioner would on average make only $423 more per year in discretionary income than a plumber. Here's a piece from him where he talks about the numbers involved. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-find-if-harvard-pays-off-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-find-...
- spamizbad 13y ago
  I'd take Kotikoff's research with a grain of salt. His analysis was done during the midst of the housing boom, which latest from the late 90s through the late 00's, where new homes and new condos, and gut-rehabs demanded A LOT of plumbing. Our housing starts are less crazy today. I imagine lower demand goes hand-in-hand with lower wages. This is just conjecture on my part though. I'd be happy to be wrong.
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    Circa 2011, in a low population area, I had to call 4 or 5 plumbers to find one that thought dealing with a clogged toilet was worthwhile. One was busy, another thought it was too far a drive (~30 miles!), another said it didn't sound like a job he wanted and the fourth didn't get back to me before I had found someone else. Who knows if I got burned, but it was $350 when I did get it done, so maybe worth that extra 5 miles of driving. (roots had (probably) grown into the line to the septic tank)
  - rsheridan6 13y ago
    On the other hand, lower reimbursements and higher tuition have also made medicine less attractive since that time period.
cheez 13y ago
My plumber is a salt-of-the-earth type and he is loaded. I told him I considered telling my daughter to get into the business. He said that she would make a killing because housewives are generally afraid to let strange men in.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- protomyth 13y ago
  The second part to that is that a plumber's job cannot be done "over the wire" in any current sense (or likely for many, many years given some of the problems being shown in remote medicine). Tis a shame we threw away apprenticeships in the rush to colleges.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
Aqueous 13y ago
It's kind of unsettling that the idea that a college-level education is for the elite only is starting to settle in. Rich benefactors like Peter Thiel and Mayor Bloomberg, both of whom seem to think they got where they are on talent alone, are broadcasting this idea that college is totally unnecessary. Rather than telling students to skip college shouldn't we be finding a way to make a high-quality college education affordable and not confined to the very rich or exceptionally gifted? I agree with Bloomberg on many things (but certainly not all) but this is just snobbery and elitism diguised as "reasonableness." Bloomberg has been a huge donor to Johns Hopkins. Perhaps he should redirect more of his contributions from propping up the endowment of an elite institution like Hopkins (some of which, in fairness, does go to financial aid) to actually directly paying for underprivileged kids to obtain such an elite education.
- mikescoffield 13y ago
  I agree w/ what Bloomberg is saying here. College doesn't make sense for many people/careers. In those cases, whether college is affordable or not is beside the point.
- delinka 13y ago
  "...starting to settle in." The generation ahead of me believed exactly this, that college education was for the "elite." The generation behind me challenged this perception and went to college. It was a boon for the oldest of that generation. Then the world became saturated with college grads expecting top-notch salaries and benefits; when it was obvious that not everyone with a degree would receive The Best Salary Ever, the younger of the same generation began to question the need for post-secondary education. I think we're just coming back to previous perceptions. I think with this ebb-and-flow of Things That Will Always Be is just happening faster than ever because of increased awareness (faster communication, broader audiences) brought about by technology; specifically the internet. As for needing a "college level education," why would everyone require this? Are we all, the entire population, headed toward a society where every job is performed by a machine, leaving us to advance our existence through focused philosophy? This, I feel, is the utopian world of The Academics. Anything short of that simply requires access to the knowledge that allows one to function in the world and perform their chosen profession.
ImprovedSilence 13y ago
>> The only schools that cost $40,000 or $50,000 like the mayor said are elite schools,” Kantrowitz said. uh... I hope they are talking per year here. The article doesn't make that clear, but 40k in debt after 4 years at a public/state college is very very possible... Bloomberg might be out of touch with how tuition has skyrocketed. Heck, I graduated in 07, and in-state tuition at my alma mater has DOUBLED since then...
- SatvikBeri 13y ago
  That quote is referencing Bloomberg's earlier quote “You don’t spend ... four years spending $40,000, $50,000 in tuition without earning income.” So it's pretty clear here's talking about per-year tuition.
- icebraining 13y ago
  http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/05/22/153316565/the-price-of-college-tuition-in-1-graphic http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/05/22/153316565/the-pric... The sticker price has gone way up (no surprise). But, because the value of grants and scholarships has also grown, average net price has grown much more slowly. In fact, in the past five years, average net price at private colleges has actually fallen.
null_ptr 13y ago
The real issue is the "four years spending $40,000, $50,000 in tuition without earning income". Education is essential for the meaningful progress of society and humanity, we can't let a "tough economy" stand in the way of long-term thinking. We also can't let greed stand in the way of bright young minds realizing themselves. Education needs to be free, thorough, and challenging, that way the minds that crave it will have unrestrained access to it, and those who don't can go ahead and pick a trade job, but not because of an empty wallet, but because that's what they genuinely want.
D9u 13y ago
I wonder what kind of grades the mayor got in college?
david_shaw 13y ago
Disclosure: I dropped out of college just before my senior year in order to accept a position in my chosen field. I don't think that college is unnecessary. In fact, I'd say that as more and more people go to college, it becomes more necessary to hold a degree in order to compete--even at entry-level positions. I have friends that are getting beaten out for restaurant work because they don't have a degree (really). This, to me, is where the problem lies. We are simultaneously overvaluing (for basic, entry-level work) and undervaluing (for higher-level jobs) college degrees. There is no doubt that to get, say, an entry-level engineering job in today's market, you need a degree (and from what I've seen, preferably a Master's). But if you have your bachelors and are still struggling to get work that traditionally doesn't require one (administrative assistants, call center employees, service industry staff, etc. come to mind), is it worth spending $40-$200k on a degree? Furthermore, skilled trades in the United States are plummeting. Mike Rowe addressed this very well in his TED talk[1]: electricians, plumbers and mechanics are getting more and more rare (and are still highly in demand) because of the stigma of not attending college. I believe that in the next several years, as unemployment for college graduates becomes more visible, that skilled trades will once again become respectable, admired careers. It's crazy to me that people like Master Electricians ever became stigmatized at all--we are in serious need of their services, and it requires immense skill and intelligence to perform their jobs. 1: http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.html http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.htm...
- anxx 13y ago
  The stigma might be associated with jealousy. I know I would be annoyed if the median income of a HS-degree profession were higher than my college-degree income. If not watched carefully, that would lead to thinking that while they are better off financially, they lack in other areas, like small world view, no critical thinking, etc - in other words, stigma.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- frozenport 13y ago
  Its about communities. In some communities people can get away without doing any work. I know dozens who have perused degrees in liberal arts only be barristers or get an MS in a field like journalism and get paid 35,000 to write music reviews (the quality of which could be found on mechanical turk). I take it as fact that enjoying your life and living off your parents is more socially expectable than skilled trades: I think we have a long way to go before plumber becomes respected.
weisser 13y ago
We shouldn't have increased college attendance as the goal. We should have increased education as the goal. The more informed and knowledgable we can make the average citizen the more we can do to improve quality of life.
fakeer 13y ago
Education is costly, so much that in sometime it's going to be elite only. Hell, it's elite only right now, minus the huge loans. So, instead of making it affordable, elites(whether they reached their elite spot on talent alone or they were born with silver spoons) they are suggesting to skip it altogether(if one can't afford it). It's a lot better in those countries where Govt. provides quality education to greater extent and even private fees are regulated. Or maybe it's demand and supply mechanism. For people from other countries it's just the best short cut for a green card, especially the Asians.
- camus 13y ago
  no it's not ,USA makes it expensive ,it doesnt have to be that expensive. In USA , education is FOR-PROFIT . It's not in most part or EUROPE for instance.
  - fakeer 13y ago
    >>It's not in most part or EUROPE for instance. I think this was true earlier but not anymore, IMHO. Take the example of Swedish higher education and other countries. They are as costly, especially for people coming from outside - from Non-EU/US and third world countries and low prospective of jobs after finishing the course makes practically these universities more expansive. Now take an example of UK. Jobs are scarce there and once you finish the degree, you don't have a job offer, you leave the country that very day. Cost of education there? Don't even ask it!
obviouslygreen 13y ago
As a college grad, my opinion might not be considered all that informed (and maybe that's fair), but honestly, "everybody gets college" seems like a shit goal to me. Not only do most professions not need a liberal arts education, many people just aren't interested in it (very, very few people really need it, though the people that do, in my opinion, include anyone who intends to get into any kind of politics or social science). It's long been my opinion that technical schools are horribly under-utilized, at least in the US (which is the basis for all my comments, as I'm woefully unequipped to comment on anything else). I also believe that apprenticeships are perhaps the best possible method of practical education there has ever been, and that this is an area presenting a massive business potential that's being significantly underutilized. Why not be a plumber? It's a dirty job -- many are -- but not only does somebody have to do it, a lot of people have to do it, or a lot of people without dirty jobs are going to get dirty and not know how to deal with it. This is a vital profession that doesn't require expensive education. There are many like it. We should encourage consideration of options like this for everyone.
willbill 13y ago
Remember that a good portion of college debt is held by people who thought they wanted to go to college, went in, accrued debt and then decided to do something different. Its good to have people in power say, 'do what is right for you.'
berkay 13y ago
- personal betterment -> college is no longer necessary - academic career and scientific research -> applies only to the best of the best. - as a professional investment -> the return on investment has to be considered. Is degree X for University of Y increase individual's earnings potential sufficiently to justify investing 4 years and $50-200K? For significant chunk of people, certainly not all, the answer is no. If you're not getting a degree that is in demand, attending an elite university, chances are investment in college does not make commercial sense, and as Bloomberg states, may be better of learning a trade. Food for thought: If 3 high school graduates pooled their financial resources they would be investing into private college education, they'd have ~$360K seed money (from tuition), and 4 years living expenses to come up with a viable business. I bet they'd learn a ton as well. Better yet, if they had first learned a trade and worked a couple of years, they may actually build some useful things instead of yet another social network.
parcefal 13y ago
We should follow Bloomberg's advice and dispense with the illusion that education alone will make up for the vast income inequality between people in this country. The poor should be plumbers and the rich should just take over their father's company or pull a Summly.
Spooky23 13y ago
He's right. People need education, not necessarily the education that you get for a BA in whatever. What's wrong with plumbers, anyway. People in the this thread seem to be implying that it is a lesser profession. You solve problems, have opportunities for entrepreneurship, and have a progressive path for mastery of the craft. I know a few people always whining about Sallie Mae. They are art teachers, social workers and service sector types. All of these folks borrowed 6 figures to get degrees from private schools in fields that require a lot of expensive education and little compensation. Making $60k to watch 6th graders draw sounds like a sweet gig... But paying $650/mo in loans makes it a subsistence job.
babesh 13y ago
We should really be asking WHAT we want out of college then look at the best way to provide that whether it is college or not. Also, this question is somewhat US centric since in Europe (correct me if I am wrong), if you want to become a lawyer, you can just go straight to law school (instead of doing 4 years and then going to law school). I personally think that these are the most important goals: 1) time and space for young adults to ask basic questions of themselves and the society they live in, to try and fail, pick yourself up again 2) exposure to some of the best the society has to offer: art, science, literature, etc... 3) training ground for specializing in a field So going into a trade will give you 3), but should there be more societal support for 1) and 2)? IMHO, coursera and the like theoretically spread limited availability of 3) but because of their virtual nature do a worse job of 1) and 2).
protomyth 13y ago
I wonder how many of our current social problems in high school are caused by our dropping apprenticeships and vocational education and going "college is the only acceptable result" route? We treat high school age students like children but expect them to think in terms of their adult future. At a time when some maturity and critical thinking needs to be developed, we keep the same factory system from elementary school.
generalcalm 13y ago
I live in Western Australia. We have a massive skills shortage in trades such as electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc. The stigma attached to non-university careers scared parents into encouraging offspring into degrees instead. (Combined with a mining boom soaking up tradesman job hunters) Today, I do not know any good 'tradies' that are not making at least 100k per year, and far, far more if heading to the mining industry. Suffice to say, I do more youtube searching on how to 'fix a leaking tap' than ever before.
coned88 13y ago
This is a horrible idea. Truth is most students need college as graduating from HS doesn't leave them in the same place it did years ago. 80% of nyc public school students entering the cuny system need remedial classes http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/officials-most-nyc-high-school-grads-need-remedial-help-before-entering-cuny-community-colleges/ http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/officials-most-nyc-hi.... CUNY schools aren't even competitive nationally so to say that this many students need remedial classes at that level says a hell of a lot about high school education, atleast that in NYC. HS graduates today need to go to college to make up for where their HS's lacked.
teeja 13y ago
In the US it -used- to be that kids who didn't have all the money they needed for school could -fairly easily- find a job or two to help themselves get through. That was helped by the fact that public-school tuition was CHEAP. In the 60s at a major university you might pay $150 tuition PER QUARTER ($225/semester). Room and board at a university dormitory? $120/month. With maid service. Compare $500/year to $15,000 -- 33 times more costly -- and ask yourself what happened in the US to make education SO much more expensive (rent in that period has increased by a factor of 10 to 15) and why part-time jobs are either looked down on or so much harder to find. Add to that a willingness to go deeply into debt (without, it seems, much understanding of how dangerous that is) that would have been -unthinkable- at that time.

Laurence Kotlikoff is really famous for his claim that plumbers actually lead pretty good lives. He says that a general practitioner would on average make only $423 more per year in discretionary income than a plumber. Here's a piece from him where he talks about the numbers involved. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-find-if-harvard-pays-off-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-09/study-hard-to-find-...

spamizbad 13y ago
I'd take Kotikoff's research with a grain of salt. His analysis was done during the midst of the housing boom, which latest from the late 90s through the late 00's, where new homes and new condos, and gut-rehabs demanded A LOT of plumbing. Our housing starts are less crazy today. I imagine lower demand goes hand-in-hand with lower wages. This is just conjecture on my part though. I'd be happy to be wrong.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  Circa 2011, in a low population area, I had to call 4 or 5 plumbers to find one that thought dealing with a clogged toilet was worthwhile. One was busy, another thought it was too far a drive (~30 miles!), another said it didn't sound like a job he wanted and the fourth didn't get back to me before I had found someone else. Who knows if I got burned, but it was $350 when I did get it done, so maybe worth that extra 5 miles of driving. (roots had (probably) grown into the line to the septic tank)
- rsheridan6 13y ago
  On the other hand, lower reimbursements and higher tuition have also made medicine less attractive since that time period.

cheez 13y ago

My plumber is a salt-of-the-earth type and he is loaded. I told him I considered telling my daughter to get into the business. He said that she would make a killing because housewives are generally afraid to let strange men in.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
protomyth 13y ago
The second part to that is that a plumber's job cannot be done "over the wire" in any current sense (or likely for many, many years given some of the problems being shown in remote medicine). Tis a shame we threw away apprenticeships in the rush to colleges.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

Aqueous 13y ago

It's kind of unsettling that the idea that a college-level education is for the elite only is starting to settle in. Rich benefactors like Peter Thiel and Mayor Bloomberg, both of whom seem to think they got where they are on talent alone, are broadcasting this idea that college is totally unnecessary. Rather than telling students to skip college shouldn't we be finding a way to make a high-quality college education affordable and not confined to the very rich or exceptionally gifted? I agree with Bloomberg on many things (but certainly not all) but this is just snobbery and elitism diguised as "reasonableness." Bloomberg has been a huge donor to Johns Hopkins. Perhaps he should redirect more of his contributions from propping up the endowment of an elite institution like Hopkins (some of which, in fairness, does go to financial aid) to actually directly paying for underprivileged kids to obtain such an elite education.

mikescoffield 13y ago
I agree w/ what Bloomberg is saying here. College doesn't make sense for many people/careers. In those cases, whether college is affordable or not is beside the point.
delinka 13y ago
"...starting to settle in." The generation ahead of me believed exactly this, that college education was for the "elite." The generation behind me challenged this perception and went to college. It was a boon for the oldest of that generation. Then the world became saturated with college grads expecting top-notch salaries and benefits; when it was obvious that not everyone with a degree would receive The Best Salary Ever, the younger of the same generation began to question the need for post-secondary education. I think we're just coming back to previous perceptions. I think with this ebb-and-flow of Things That Will Always Be is just happening faster than ever because of increased awareness (faster communication, broader audiences) brought about by technology; specifically the internet. As for needing a "college level education," why would everyone require this? Are we all, the entire population, headed toward a society where every job is performed by a machine, leaving us to advance our existence through focused philosophy? This, I feel, is the utopian world of The Academics. Anything short of that simply requires access to the knowledge that allows one to function in the world and perform their chosen profession.

ImprovedSilence 13y ago

>> The only schools that cost $40,000 or $50,000 like the mayor said are elite schools,” Kantrowitz said. uh... I hope they are talking per year here. The article doesn't make that clear, but 40k in debt after 4 years at a public/state college is very very possible... Bloomberg might be out of touch with how tuition has skyrocketed. Heck, I graduated in 07, and in-state tuition at my alma mater has DOUBLED since then...

SatvikBeri 13y ago
That quote is referencing Bloomberg's earlier quote “You don’t spend ... four years spending $40,000, $50,000 in tuition without earning income.” So it's pretty clear here's talking about per-year tuition.
icebraining 13y ago
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/05/22/153316565/the-price-of-college-tuition-in-1-graphic http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/05/22/153316565/the-pric... The sticker price has gone way up (no surprise). But, because the value of grants and scholarships has also grown, average net price has grown much more slowly. In fact, in the past five years, average net price at private colleges has actually fallen.

null_ptr 13y ago

The real issue is the "four years spending $40,000, $50,000 in tuition without earning income". Education is essential for the meaningful progress of society and humanity, we can't let a "tough economy" stand in the way of long-term thinking. We also can't let greed stand in the way of bright young minds realizing themselves. Education needs to be free, thorough, and challenging, that way the minds that crave it will have unrestrained access to it, and those who don't can go ahead and pick a trade job, but not because of an empty wallet, but because that's what they genuinely want.

D9u 13y ago

I wonder what kind of grades the mayor got in college?

david_shaw 13y ago

Disclosure: I dropped out of college just before my senior year in order to accept a position in my chosen field. I don't think that college is unnecessary. In fact, I'd say that as more and more people go to college, it becomes more necessary to hold a degree in order to compete--even at entry-level positions. I have friends that are getting beaten out for restaurant work because they don't have a degree (really). This, to me, is where the problem lies. We are simultaneously overvaluing (for basic, entry-level work) and undervaluing (for higher-level jobs) college degrees. There is no doubt that to get, say, an entry-level engineering job in today's market, you need a degree (and from what I've seen, preferably a Master's). But if you have your bachelors and are still struggling to get work that traditionally doesn't require one (administrative assistants, call center employees, service industry staff, etc. come to mind), is it worth spending $40-$200k on a degree? Furthermore, skilled trades in the United States are plummeting. Mike Rowe addressed this very well in his TED talk[1]: electricians, plumbers and mechanics are getting more and more rare (and are still highly in demand) because of the stigma of not attending college. I believe that in the next several years, as unemployment for college graduates becomes more visible, that skilled trades will once again become respectable, admired careers. It's crazy to me that people like Master Electricians ever became stigmatized at all--we are in serious need of their services, and it requires immense skill and intelligence to perform their jobs. 1: http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.html http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.htm...

anxx 13y ago
The stigma might be associated with jealousy. I know I would be annoyed if the median income of a HS-degree profession were higher than my college-degree income. If not watched carefully, that would lead to thinking that while they are better off financially, they lack in other areas, like small world view, no critical thinking, etc - in other words, stigma.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
frozenport 13y ago
Its about communities. In some communities people can get away without doing any work. I know dozens who have perused degrees in liberal arts only be barristers or get an MS in a field like journalism and get paid 35,000 to write music reviews (the quality of which could be found on mechanical turk). I take it as fact that enjoying your life and living off your parents is more socially expectable than skilled trades: I think we have a long way to go before plumber becomes respected.

weisser 13y ago

We shouldn't have increased college attendance as the goal. We should have increased education as the goal. The more informed and knowledgable we can make the average citizen the more we can do to improve quality of life.

fakeer 13y ago

Education is costly, so much that in sometime it's going to be elite only. Hell, it's elite only right now, minus the huge loans. So, instead of making it affordable, elites(whether they reached their elite spot on talent alone or they were born with silver spoons) they are suggesting to skip it altogether(if one can't afford it). It's a lot better in those countries where Govt. provides quality education to greater extent and even private fees are regulated. Or maybe it's demand and supply mechanism. For people from other countries it's just the best short cut for a green card, especially the Asians.

camus 13y ago
no it's not ,USA makes it expensive ,it doesnt have to be that expensive. In USA , education is FOR-PROFIT . It's not in most part or EUROPE for instance.
- fakeer 13y ago
  >>It's not in most part or EUROPE for instance. I think this was true earlier but not anymore, IMHO. Take the example of Swedish higher education and other countries. They are as costly, especially for people coming from outside - from Non-EU/US and third world countries and low prospective of jobs after finishing the course makes practically these universities more expansive. Now take an example of UK. Jobs are scarce there and once you finish the degree, you don't have a job offer, you leave the country that very day. Cost of education there? Don't even ask it!

obviouslygreen 13y ago

As a college grad, my opinion might not be considered all that informed (and maybe that's fair), but honestly, "everybody gets college" seems like a shit goal to me. Not only do most professions not need a liberal arts education, many people just aren't interested in it (very, very few people really need it, though the people that do, in my opinion, include anyone who intends to get into any kind of politics or social science). It's long been my opinion that technical schools are horribly under-utilized, at least in the US (which is the basis for all my comments, as I'm woefully unequipped to comment on anything else). I also believe that apprenticeships are perhaps the best possible method of practical education there has ever been, and that this is an area presenting a massive business potential that's being significantly underutilized. Why not be a plumber? It's a dirty job -- many are -- but not only does somebody have to do it, a lot of people have to do it, or a lot of people without dirty jobs are going to get dirty and not know how to deal with it. This is a vital profession that doesn't require expensive education. There are many like it. We should encourage consideration of options like this for everyone.

willbill 13y ago

Remember that a good portion of college debt is held by people who thought they wanted to go to college, went in, accrued debt and then decided to do something different. Its good to have people in power say, 'do what is right for you.'

berkay 13y ago

- personal betterment -> college is no longer necessary - academic career and scientific research -> applies only to the best of the best. - as a professional investment -> the return on investment has to be considered. Is degree X for University of Y increase individual's earnings potential sufficiently to justify investing 4 years and $50-200K? For significant chunk of people, certainly not all, the answer is no. If you're not getting a degree that is in demand, attending an elite university, chances are investment in college does not make commercial sense, and as Bloomberg states, may be better of learning a trade. Food for thought: If 3 high school graduates pooled their financial resources they would be investing into private college education, they'd have ~$360K seed money (from tuition), and 4 years living expenses to come up with a viable business. I bet they'd learn a ton as well. Better yet, if they had first learned a trade and worked a couple of years, they may actually build some useful things instead of yet another social network.

parcefal 13y ago

We should follow Bloomberg's advice and dispense with the illusion that education alone will make up for the vast income inequality between people in this country. The poor should be plumbers and the rich should just take over their father's company or pull a Summly.

Spooky23 13y ago

He's right. People need education, not necessarily the education that you get for a BA in whatever. What's wrong with plumbers, anyway. People in the this thread seem to be implying that it is a lesser profession. You solve problems, have opportunities for entrepreneurship, and have a progressive path for mastery of the craft. I know a few people always whining about Sallie Mae. They are art teachers, social workers and service sector types. All of these folks borrowed 6 figures to get degrees from private schools in fields that require a lot of expensive education and little compensation. Making $60k to watch 6th graders draw sounds like a sweet gig... But paying $650/mo in loans makes it a subsistence job.

babesh 13y ago

We should really be asking WHAT we want out of college then look at the best way to provide that whether it is college or not. Also, this question is somewhat US centric since in Europe (correct me if I am wrong), if you want to become a lawyer, you can just go straight to law school (instead of doing 4 years and then going to law school). I personally think that these are the most important goals: 1) time and space for young adults to ask basic questions of themselves and the society they live in, to try and fail, pick yourself up again 2) exposure to some of the best the society has to offer: art, science, literature, etc... 3) training ground for specializing in a field So going into a trade will give you 3), but should there be more societal support for 1) and 2)? IMHO, coursera and the like theoretically spread limited availability of 3) but because of their virtual nature do a worse job of 1) and 2).

protomyth 13y ago

I wonder how many of our current social problems in high school are caused by our dropping apprenticeships and vocational education and going "college is the only acceptable result" route? We treat high school age students like children but expect them to think in terms of their adult future. At a time when some maturity and critical thinking needs to be developed, we keep the same factory system from elementary school.

generalcalm 13y ago

I live in Western Australia. We have a massive skills shortage in trades such as electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc. The stigma attached to non-university careers scared parents into encouraging offspring into degrees instead. (Combined with a mining boom soaking up tradesman job hunters) Today, I do not know any good 'tradies' that are not making at least 100k per year, and far, far more if heading to the mining industry. Suffice to say, I do more youtube searching on how to 'fix a leaking tap' than ever before.

coned88 13y ago

This is a horrible idea. Truth is most students need college as graduating from HS doesn't leave them in the same place it did years ago. 80% of nyc public school students entering the cuny system need remedial classes http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/officials-most-nyc-high-school-grads-need-remedial-help-before-entering-cuny-community-colleges/ http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/officials-most-nyc-hi.... CUNY schools aren't even competitive nationally so to say that this many students need remedial classes at that level says a hell of a lot about high school education, atleast that in NYC. HS graduates today need to go to college to make up for where their HS's lacked.

teeja 13y ago

In the US it -used- to be that kids who didn't have all the money they needed for school could -fairly easily- find a job or two to help themselves get through. That was helped by the fact that public-school tuition was CHEAP. In the 60s at a major university you might pay $150 tuition PER QUARTER ($225/semester). Room and board at a university dormitory? $120/month. With maid service. Compare $500/year to $15,000 -- 33 times more costly -- and ask yourself what happened in the US to make education SO much more expensive (rent in that period has increased by a factor of 10 to 15) and why part-time jobs are either looked down on or so much harder to find. Add to that a willingness to go deeply into debt (without, it seems, much understanding of how dangerous that is) that would have been -unthinkable- at that time.