8 ms·

Google’s Greatest Strength May Be the Luxury of Failure

35 points by yarapavan 14y ago

abhinavsharma 14y ago
"CEO Eric Schmidt" lol
michaelochurch 14y ago
Technological experiments often call for risk-seeking and adventure, but when it comes to things that affect other people, a more conservative and level-headed approach is necessary. For example, the utter recklessness involved in deploying calibration scores and shuttering 20% time is deplorable. That's an extreme lapse of professional responsibility. (Sorry if this irritating, but as a matter of principle, I must keep doing this until Google does the right thing and one of the two founders issues a formal apology, and not only to me but to thousands of other affected people.)
- raldi 14y ago
  I would usually hesitate to make a cartoon reference on Hacker News, but I really feel it's called for at this time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73GOfY0Ab9g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73GOfY0Ab9g
- phreeza 14y ago
  Do you have some kind of script set up to alert you any time a story mentioning Google makes the front page?
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    No, but that's a good idea. Thanks for that. I have an important job to do, which is to try to save Google (although I will probably fail) from the people who are trying to destroy it. Even though I left that place and will almost certainly never go back, it's too important a company to let it fall to ashes.
    - cromwellian 14y ago
      You can't iterate on products without launching them. Startup culture in Silicon Valley is all about failing fast. The heart of science is running experiments, and if Google can't run experiments or pilots, it will fail to the innovators dilemma. Our democracy is similarly unable to run experiments to test out policy, which was another thing Larry talked about, as a result, we argue over the effects of policy without doing anything. States were supposed to be the laboratories of democracy, but even on the state level, hardly any experiments are conducted. The idea that you should only launch services you plan to run forever is a plan for stagnation and death.
      - yuhong 14y ago
        Yes, but michaelochurch was talking about something else.
        cromwellian 14y ago
        Many of the Google products you see today were 20% projects. Google had no idea GMail would be a hit. You can't simultaneously criticize management for 20% time being more difficult, and then criticize them for launching lots and lots of experimental products and then killing off the ones that don't work.
        michaelochurch 14y ago
        We agree. I am all for "lots and lots of experimental products". Calibration scores (secret performance reviews that happen in the Perf Room-- yes, Google has a physical place for "calibration" that is actually called "The Perf Room") are not experimental technology or product. They're an experiment (and a failed one) on people. Different rules together.
        dewitt 14y ago
        Odd. I've been doing eng management at Google for the better part of a decade and I've never heard the term "Perf Room" before, nor did an internal search turn anything up. Maybe it is used, but at the very least I'm unaware of it. I realize you worked there for a few months a few years ago, but I think someone might have been pulling your leg if they told you that phrase. (But you're right, like most meetings at Google, calibration meetings do happen in rooms. They're just normal conference rooms, though. Nothing special.) For everyone else: calibration is a process where other managers at Google cross-check the performance scores given to employees across different teams and parts of the company. We do this so that an individual manager can't introduce undue bias or play favorites, and so an engineer at a given level in one part of the company is more or less the equal of an engineer at the same level in another part. Calibration is one part of the system I think works really well, much better than any other place I've worked. In fact, I think more companies might want to emulate it.
- apalmer 14y ago
  Are you for real? I am trying to figure if you are a troll or whether you are truly psychologically damaged by your time at google? Dude google is not going to change or issue an apology because a former employee rags on them on the internet... you do realize this right?
  - verbin217 14y ago
    I think it's fascinating. If you read his other comments he's obviously brilliant. That said, he seems to be somewhat detached from reality over his episode at Google. Not that perf isn't shitty just that he seems to think he alone can do anything about it. It's like the endearing megalomania of a child who honestly believes he'll grow up to single handedly end world hunger or cure cancer. You just hope that after he realizes his limitations he isn't so distraught that it keeps him from accomplishing what he's clearly capable of.
    - agent00f 13y ago
      Is the alternative implied here to acquiesce instead?
      - verbin217 13y ago
        If you mean michaelochurch then no not at all. "I must keep doing this until Google does the right thing and one of the two founders issues a formal apology, and not only to me but to thousands of other affected people." I don't mind his Google bashing all that much. I just hope that he's accepted the futility of it. He can't really do any more damage to his reputation so he may as well keep going. This is a good place to broadcast to prospective/current Google employees. There could be people reading here who've already been slotted and don't even realize it. Whether Google accelerates your career or uses you as a disposable code monkey is determined entirely by their incentives. How would it benefit them to tell an under-performer that they're not going anywhere? Using the ambiguity of an eventual promotion as an implied carrot would generate better returns on their investment. It sounds like it'd work pretty well actually... Use Google's reputation to bring on a flurry of the most desirable new graduates and use them to do grunt work while they're motivated to prove themselves. Promote the top performers to "Real Googlers". Keep the middle around until they run out of steam or quit in frustration. Google gets cost effective grunt work and a larger share of the very best talent as a long-term strategic advantage against Apple/Microsoft/Facebook. If michaelochurch is as abnormally dauntless/foolhardy as he appears to be this could be a really big problem. Most people negatively affected probably go the "professional" route and quietly move on.
d0gsbody 14y ago
This article barely talks about its title topic.
OGinparadise 14y ago
Its reckless, up-for-anything approach seems to be working. Its stock price is now $909.18, up 50% over the last 52 weeks, and the company’s market cap is $301 billion. Its year-over-year quarterly revenue growth exceeds 30%, which is pretty remarkable for company of its size and age. (warning: I'm not a Google fan in the Larry Page as CEO era and that has hellbanned /slowbanned me from here. Who cares. Oh well) His entire premise is based on Google growing by 30% a year and that's done by over-monetizing https://searchengineland.com/figz/wp-content/seloads/2012/01/ads-on-google.png https://searchengineland.com/figz/wp-content/seloads/2012/01... search and (IMHO) using search to force sites to advertise by limiting their free traffic with that purpose. Google Search seem to work to increase Adwords revenue, something many people believe in the post Larry Page world. (Still IMO) this will backfire, I read that many people do not know that they clicked on ads, they thought they were organic results. 95% or so of Google's revue is still thanks to ads. Also Google is doing all it can to not send users to the best answer, but to ads and to a Google site. I see YouTube videos all over search, Google Places, images and other Google services. Google has become over1ly aggressive with ads and penalizing sites, in part to give themselves some runway to try other things, no one questions Larry when things are growing by 25%-30%. As for the stock price, Apple was supposed to go to $1000 too, sometimes the fall is just as dramatic. Bing is "good enough" for most people, that's why Microsoft is trying to muddy the Google brand. That's major risk too, if you do not trust Google results, they can go downhill quite fast.
morgante 14y ago
Not exactly sure how this article defends its headline at all. Considering that the author points to Motorola and Facebook Home as wins, his grasp of the tech scene seems rather weak.
- hkmurakami 14y ago
  I figure we should just flag the article off of the front page then?
SpikeDad 14y ago
Google's greatest strength is that the tech press don't give a rat's ass about how they behave as a company as long as folks get free stuff.
mtdewcmu 14y ago
"The lesson may be that a broad focus on innovation and solving big problems leads to resiliency." That would be an interesting conclusion if there was a good reason to believe it, but the article didn't make much of a case. How many of Google's off-the-wall projects are contributing to their 30% year-over-year quarterly revenue growth? Most of the projects mentioned were either market failures or haven't been released yet. Android was clearly a success, but it wasn't a great example of innovation: it was basically a clone of a successful existing product. There's probably a more prosaic explanation for Google's success relative to Facebook. Both companies make most of their revenue from advertising, but Google developed AdWords, which leveraged Google's search infrastructure to became an essential piece of infrastructure for the buying and selling of ads. It's hard to name any other company that got rich off of web ads besides Google. Google is entrenched in the fabric of the internet, while Facebook is an upstart that's primarily just a website, like Yahoo was 15 years ago. At that time, Microsoft was the giant that owned the critical infrastructure, and they were doing very similar things as Google is now: Microsoft created MSN to compete with AOL and Yahoo; Microsoft leveraged its infrastructure to crush a threat from an upstart competitor -- Netscape. Building out, as much and as fast as you can, seems to be the winning strategy when you are in a position of overwhelming dominance as a result of owning essential infrastructure. The "Luxury of Failure" is the actual lesson here. You get the luxury of failure when you own a revenue stream that's big and entrenched enough that you have the luxury to do essentially anything you want, even lose money. It's hard to compete against that.
- timedoctor 14y ago
  Microsoft has the luxury of failure also, but when they tried to compete with Google they failed. Microsoft are in the same markets that Google makes a huge amount of money from and yet they failed on most fronts. I think the safest way for Google to make money would be to not innovate or create any off the wall projects, and then just return the money the money to shareholders through dividends or share buybacks. Just looking at the current stock price of Google $909 and Earnings per share of $33, this means that IF Google returned the entire earnings to shareholders it would take 27 years for the shareholders to get their money back and THEN after this 27 years they would start to get a return on their investment. This assumes no growth, and Google has grown significantly but there is no guarantee they will grow in the future. Even if they do grow significantly it will still take a very long time to get your investment back. There are unknowns that could completely disrupt Google's business models for example what if all search became voice based (siri-like) with better AI. Or what if a competitor develops much better AI capabilities into their search.
markkat 14y ago
I was lead to believe that Larry Page was Google's CEO. How does this get sent to print?
alfaomega 14y ago
>It’s doing everything at once, from creating the Android software running the smartphones that, through its acquisition of Motorola , it also builds... >Phones equipped with the Android operating system are outselling the once-unassailable iPhone. That seems to be suggesting that Motorola phones are doing well but Motorola continues to lose hundreds of millions of dollars every quarter. Ships take time to turn around but maybe the rumored X-Phone will make a difference.

35 points by yarapavan 14y ago

"CEO Eric Schmidt" lol

Technological experiments often call for risk-seeking and adventure, but when it comes to things that affect other people, a more conservative and level-headed approach is necessary. For example, the utter recklessness involved in deploying calibration scores and shuttering 20% time is deplorable. That's an extreme lapse of professional responsibility. (Sorry if this irritating, but as a matter of principle, I must keep doing this until Google does the right thing and one of the two founders issues a formal apology, and not only to me but to thousands of other affected people.)

raldi 14y ago
I would usually hesitate to make a cartoon reference on Hacker News, but I really feel it's called for at this time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73GOfY0Ab9g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73GOfY0Ab9g
phreeza 14y ago
Do you have some kind of script set up to alert you any time a story mentioning Google makes the front page?
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  No, but that's a good idea. Thanks for that. I have an important job to do, which is to try to save Google (although I will probably fail) from the people who are trying to destroy it. Even though I left that place and will almost certainly never go back, it's too important a company to let it fall to ashes.
  - cromwellian 14y ago
    You can't iterate on products without launching them. Startup culture in Silicon Valley is all about failing fast. The heart of science is running experiments, and if Google can't run experiments or pilots, it will fail to the innovators dilemma. Our democracy is similarly unable to run experiments to test out policy, which was another thing Larry talked about, as a result, we argue over the effects of policy without doing anything. States were supposed to be the laboratories of democracy, but even on the state level, hardly any experiments are conducted. The idea that you should only launch services you plan to run forever is a plan for stagnation and death.
    - yuhong 14y ago
      Yes, but michaelochurch was talking about something else.
      - cromwellian 14y ago
        Many of the Google products you see today were 20% projects. Google had no idea GMail would be a hit. You can't simultaneously criticize management for 20% time being more difficult, and then criticize them for launching lots and lots of experimental products and then killing off the ones that don't work.
        michaelochurch 14y ago
        We agree. I am all for "lots and lots of experimental products". Calibration scores (secret performance reviews that happen in the Perf Room-- yes, Google has a physical place for "calibration" that is actually called "The Perf Room") are not experimental technology or product. They're an experiment (and a failed one) on people. Different rules together.
        dewitt 14y ago
        Odd. I've been doing eng management at Google for the better part of a decade and I've never heard the term "Perf Room" before, nor did an internal search turn anything up. Maybe it is used, but at the very least I'm unaware of it. I realize you worked there for a few months a few years ago, but I think someone might have been pulling your leg if they told you that phrase. (But you're right, like most meetings at Google, calibration meetings do happen in rooms. They're just normal conference rooms, though. Nothing special.) For everyone else: calibration is a process where other managers at Google cross-check the performance scores given to employees across different teams and parts of the company. We do this so that an individual manager can't introduce undue bias or play favorites, and so an engineer at a given level in one part of the company is more or less the equal of an engineer at the same level in another part. Calibration is one part of the system I think works really well, much better than any other place I've worked. In fact, I think more companies might want to emulate it.
apalmer 14y ago
Are you for real? I am trying to figure if you are a troll or whether you are truly psychologically damaged by your time at google? Dude google is not going to change or issue an apology because a former employee rags on them on the internet... you do realize this right?
- verbin217 14y ago
  I think it's fascinating. If you read his other comments he's obviously brilliant. That said, he seems to be somewhat detached from reality over his episode at Google. Not that perf isn't shitty just that he seems to think he alone can do anything about it. It's like the endearing megalomania of a child who honestly believes he'll grow up to single handedly end world hunger or cure cancer. You just hope that after he realizes his limitations he isn't so distraught that it keeps him from accomplishing what he's clearly capable of.
  - agent00f 13y ago
    Is the alternative implied here to acquiesce instead?
    - verbin217 13y ago
      If you mean michaelochurch then no not at all. "I must keep doing this until Google does the right thing and one of the two founders issues a formal apology, and not only to me but to thousands of other affected people." I don't mind his Google bashing all that much. I just hope that he's accepted the futility of it. He can't really do any more damage to his reputation so he may as well keep going. This is a good place to broadcast to prospective/current Google employees. There could be people reading here who've already been slotted and don't even realize it. Whether Google accelerates your career or uses you as a disposable code monkey is determined entirely by their incentives. How would it benefit them to tell an under-performer that they're not going anywhere? Using the ambiguity of an eventual promotion as an implied carrot would generate better returns on their investment. It sounds like it'd work pretty well actually... Use Google's reputation to bring on a flurry of the most desirable new graduates and use them to do grunt work while they're motivated to prove themselves. Promote the top performers to "Real Googlers". Keep the middle around until they run out of steam or quit in frustration. Google gets cost effective grunt work and a larger share of the very best talent as a long-term strategic advantage against Apple/Microsoft/Facebook. If michaelochurch is as abnormally dauntless/foolhardy as he appears to be this could be a really big problem. Most people negatively affected probably go the "professional" route and quietly move on.

d0gsbody 14y ago

This article barely talks about its title topic.

OGinparadise 14y ago

Its reckless, up-for-anything approach seems to be working. Its stock price is now $909.18, up 50% over the last 52 weeks, and the company’s market cap is $301 billion. Its year-over-year quarterly revenue growth exceeds 30%, which is pretty remarkable for company of its size and age. (warning: I'm not a Google fan in the Larry Page as CEO era and that has hellbanned /slowbanned me from here. Who cares. Oh well) His entire premise is based on Google growing by 30% a year and that's done by over-monetizing https://searchengineland.com/figz/wp-content/seloads/2012/01/ads-on-google.png https://searchengineland.com/figz/wp-content/seloads/2012/01... search and (IMHO) using search to force sites to advertise by limiting their free traffic with that purpose. Google Search seem to work to increase Adwords revenue, something many people believe in the post Larry Page world. (Still IMO) this will backfire, I read that many people do not know that they clicked on ads, they thought they were organic results. 95% or so of Google's revue is still thanks to ads. Also Google is doing all it can to not send users to the best answer, but to ads and to a Google site. I see YouTube videos all over search, Google Places, images and other Google services. Google has become over1ly aggressive with ads and penalizing sites, in part to give themselves some runway to try other things, no one questions Larry when things are growing by 25%-30%. As for the stock price, Apple was supposed to go to $1000 too, sometimes the fall is just as dramatic. Bing is "good enough" for most people, that's why Microsoft is trying to muddy the Google brand. That's major risk too, if you do not trust Google results, they can go downhill quite fast.

morgante 14y ago

Not exactly sure how this article defends its headline at all. Considering that the author points to Motorola and Facebook Home as wins, his grasp of the tech scene seems rather weak.

hkmurakami 14y ago
I figure we should just flag the article off of the front page then?

SpikeDad 14y ago

Google's greatest strength is that the tech press don't give a rat's ass about how they behave as a company as long as folks get free stuff.

mtdewcmu 14y ago

"The lesson may be that a broad focus on innovation and solving big problems leads to resiliency." That would be an interesting conclusion if there was a good reason to believe it, but the article didn't make much of a case. How many of Google's off-the-wall projects are contributing to their 30% year-over-year quarterly revenue growth? Most of the projects mentioned were either market failures or haven't been released yet. Android was clearly a success, but it wasn't a great example of innovation: it was basically a clone of a successful existing product. There's probably a more prosaic explanation for Google's success relative to Facebook. Both companies make most of their revenue from advertising, but Google developed AdWords, which leveraged Google's search infrastructure to became an essential piece of infrastructure for the buying and selling of ads. It's hard to name any other company that got rich off of web ads besides Google. Google is entrenched in the fabric of the internet, while Facebook is an upstart that's primarily just a website, like Yahoo was 15 years ago. At that time, Microsoft was the giant that owned the critical infrastructure, and they were doing very similar things as Google is now: Microsoft created MSN to compete with AOL and Yahoo; Microsoft leveraged its infrastructure to crush a threat from an upstart competitor -- Netscape. Building out, as much and as fast as you can, seems to be the winning strategy when you are in a position of overwhelming dominance as a result of owning essential infrastructure. The "Luxury of Failure" is the actual lesson here. You get the luxury of failure when you own a revenue stream that's big and entrenched enough that you have the luxury to do essentially anything you want, even lose money. It's hard to compete against that.

timedoctor 14y ago
Microsoft has the luxury of failure also, but when they tried to compete with Google they failed. Microsoft are in the same markets that Google makes a huge amount of money from and yet they failed on most fronts. I think the safest way for Google to make money would be to not innovate or create any off the wall projects, and then just return the money the money to shareholders through dividends or share buybacks. Just looking at the current stock price of Google $909 and Earnings per share of $33, this means that IF Google returned the entire earnings to shareholders it would take 27 years for the shareholders to get their money back and THEN after this 27 years they would start to get a return on their investment. This assumes no growth, and Google has grown significantly but there is no guarantee they will grow in the future. Even if they do grow significantly it will still take a very long time to get your investment back. There are unknowns that could completely disrupt Google's business models for example what if all search became voice based (siri-like) with better AI. Or what if a competitor develops much better AI capabilities into their search.

markkat 14y ago

I was lead to believe that Larry Page was Google's CEO. How does this get sent to print?

alfaomega 14y ago

>It’s doing everything at once, from creating the Android software running the smartphones that, through its acquisition of Motorola , it also builds... >Phones equipped with the Android operating system are outselling the once-unassailable iPhone. That seems to be suggesting that Motorola phones are doing well but Motorola continues to lose hundreds of millions of dollars every quarter. Ships take time to turn around but maybe the rumored X-Phone will make a difference.