5 ms·

Obligatory xkcd comic. http://xkcd.com/538/ http://xkcd.com/538/

by aurelianito 13y ago

claudius 13y ago
If they use this method, I at the very least know that they’re using it and that my data is compromised.
- buster 13y ago
  If you wouldn't be drugged :(
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Enough alcohol will leave me unable to recall several of my longer passwords. I find it hard to believe that they have a drug that will 1) not trigger that, 2) not leave a hangover of any sorts, 3) render me entirely unable to remember the incident, 4) make me inclined to tell them the password. That would basically be a wonder drug, the ultimate truth serum.
    - chalst 13y ago
      There are drugs for some of those things... 1) Barbiturates induce a hypnotic state that has widely been reported to improve subjects ability to recall details. Published work on human subjects more or less dried up in the early 70s for ethical grounds (cf. http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/exhumed.htm http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/exhumed.htm "There is, unfortunately, a virtual lack of controlled clinical studies on the accuracy of hypnotically refreshed memories."), but I bet the military have classified knowledge. Also, there's been quite a bit of published work on recall under barbiturates in dogs and rats. 2) So, you wake up with a hangover, a blackout, some bruises, and an attractive stranger in your bed. What do you assume? 3) There are drugs to suppress memories. Barbiturates, again, make it hard to recall details of the trance. Also, see http://mbldownloads.com/0205CNS_Pitman.pdf http://mbldownloads.com/0205CNS_Pitman.pdf 4) Barbiturates, yet again, are well-documented to improve compliance, though at the expense of an apparent willingness to cause you to believe what you think will please the interrogator rather than what you would normally believe to be true.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        > So, you wake up with a hangover, a blackout, some bruises, and an attractive stranger in your bed. What do you assume? Unless I was out clubbing, taking drugs without knowing what they were, (I am not in the habit of doing this...), I would get myself to a hospital and probably call the police. I'm fairly familiar with what truly excessive amounts of alcohol will do to me and that list of symptoms does not include truly blacking out without the presence of some other pretty extreme symptoms. Of course I have not gotten this drunk in years because I am an adult who knows how to moderate my own drink intake, so I would assume I was drugged regardless (if nothing else, had my drinks spiked)... Regardless, any drug-induced blackouts that leave you coherent enough to participate in complex tasks (including recall) are unreliable at best; there is a strong chance that the victim will remember that something bad happened. Honestly it would be better to just give up on the "black out" part, drug the guy conventionally, then beat the password out of him. You will undoubtedly have better results by giving yourself fewer restrictions.
      - ballard 13y ago
        Speaking of passwords, or: how I detest them so... Passwords ... other people can watch you enter them, even at distance, and are easily forged, once known. Pen & ink signatures ... the results can be replicated and are hard to verify algorithmically. Other solutions ... meh. Hand gesture inside a box, more inventive than the bird, determined by cameras. 3D gestures like if android unlock worked in augmented reality. The "box," not of the Dune kind, would start folded flat and open to be sure nothing else were inside of it. Sadly, not even Thing. Folds up to create a completely discrete puppetry stage for god knows what, but sadly it wouldn't be all that interesting. The point being that it's harder to fake or compel a performance that would basically be impossible to observe (assume trust of the system, of course, like anything... imperfect) rather than something tangible like an iris, print, voice, etc. I'm sure the DDR ATM will be next at airports, but passwords still suck.
    - buster 13y ago
      So when you say you actually have to type a password you're screwed in our hyptothetic scenario anyway. You think it's hard to sniff what you type into your keyboard[1]? To install a camera watching you enter a password? And now don't tell me you're using Wifi, that'd be a security nightmare then ;) [1] like http://www.keelog.com/ http://www.keelog.com/ only in small and unrecognizable
    - speeq 13y ago
      There is a drug called Scopolamine, which pretty much does that. Vice made a documentary about it called "World's Scariest Drug" - http://youtu.be/ToQ8PWYnu04 http://youtu.be/ToQ8PWYnu04

Obligatory xkcd comic. http://xkcd.com/538/ http://xkcd.com/538/

claudius 13y ago

If they use this method, I at the very least know that they’re using it and that my data is compromised.

buster 13y ago
If you wouldn't be drugged :(
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Enough alcohol will leave me unable to recall several of my longer passwords. I find it hard to believe that they have a drug that will 1) not trigger that, 2) not leave a hangover of any sorts, 3) render me entirely unable to remember the incident, 4) make me inclined to tell them the password. That would basically be a wonder drug, the ultimate truth serum.
  - chalst 13y ago
    There are drugs for some of those things... 1) Barbiturates induce a hypnotic state that has widely been reported to improve subjects ability to recall details. Published work on human subjects more or less dried up in the early 70s for ethical grounds (cf. http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/exhumed.htm http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/exhumed.htm "There is, unfortunately, a virtual lack of controlled clinical studies on the accuracy of hypnotically refreshed memories."), but I bet the military have classified knowledge. Also, there's been quite a bit of published work on recall under barbiturates in dogs and rats. 2) So, you wake up with a hangover, a blackout, some bruises, and an attractive stranger in your bed. What do you assume? 3) There are drugs to suppress memories. Barbiturates, again, make it hard to recall details of the trance. Also, see http://mbldownloads.com/0205CNS_Pitman.pdf http://mbldownloads.com/0205CNS_Pitman.pdf 4) Barbiturates, yet again, are well-documented to improve compliance, though at the expense of an apparent willingness to cause you to believe what you think will please the interrogator rather than what you would normally believe to be true.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      > So, you wake up with a hangover, a blackout, some bruises, and an attractive stranger in your bed. What do you assume? Unless I was out clubbing, taking drugs without knowing what they were, (I am not in the habit of doing this...), I would get myself to a hospital and probably call the police. I'm fairly familiar with what truly excessive amounts of alcohol will do to me and that list of symptoms does not include truly blacking out without the presence of some other pretty extreme symptoms. Of course I have not gotten this drunk in years because I am an adult who knows how to moderate my own drink intake, so I would assume I was drugged regardless (if nothing else, had my drinks spiked)... Regardless, any drug-induced blackouts that leave you coherent enough to participate in complex tasks (including recall) are unreliable at best; there is a strong chance that the victim will remember that something bad happened. Honestly it would be better to just give up on the "black out" part, drug the guy conventionally, then beat the password out of him. You will undoubtedly have better results by giving yourself fewer restrictions.
    - ballard 13y ago
      Speaking of passwords, or: how I detest them so... Passwords ... other people can watch you enter them, even at distance, and are easily forged, once known. Pen & ink signatures ... the results can be replicated and are hard to verify algorithmically. Other solutions ... meh. Hand gesture inside a box, more inventive than the bird, determined by cameras. 3D gestures like if android unlock worked in augmented reality. The "box," not of the Dune kind, would start folded flat and open to be sure nothing else were inside of it. Sadly, not even Thing. Folds up to create a completely discrete puppetry stage for god knows what, but sadly it wouldn't be all that interesting. The point being that it's harder to fake or compel a performance that would basically be impossible to observe (assume trust of the system, of course, like anything... imperfect) rather than something tangible like an iris, print, voice, etc. I'm sure the DDR ATM will be next at airports, but passwords still suck.
  - buster 13y ago
    So when you say you actually have to type a password you're screwed in our hyptothetic scenario anyway. You think it's hard to sniff what you type into your keyboard[1]? To install a camera watching you enter a password? And now don't tell me you're using Wifi, that'd be a security nightmare then ;) [1] like http://www.keelog.com/ http://www.keelog.com/ only in small and unrecognizable
  - speeq 13y ago
    There is a drug called Scopolamine, which pretty much does that. Vice made a documentary about it called "World's Scariest Drug" - http://youtu.be/ToQ8PWYnu04 http://youtu.be/ToQ8PWYnu04