5 ms·

Database startup Drawn to Scale is closing down

32 points by dmor 13y ago

mratzloff 13y ago
I know nothing about this company, so perhaps I have answered my own question, but... How does a SQL-on-Hadoop solution, especially one of the first on the market, fail in this big data-obsessed investment climate?
- jandrewrogers 13y ago
  The issue is that Hadoop, once you strip away the hype, is a terrible analytical database system. It was designed for a narrow analytic use case but has been sold far beyond its capability and no amount of wrapping or abstraction will make the reality of the underlying architecture go away. Consequently, you have a crowded market of companies that try to differentiate by modding Hadoop to make it do things it really can't do well for fundamental computer science reasons. So it is both a highly competitive market and only marginal value is being added to the base Hadoop platform that customers can discern. VCs know this and are mostly done with the Hadoop portion of the Big Data market. Most of the new growth is in non-Hadoop platforms with more capable architectures. It is a point of differentiation that they can handle many workloads (e.g. real-time) and many data models (e.g. geospatial) that Hadoop fundamentally cannot handle well. It is the natural evolution of the hype cycle. Hadoop is being pushed back into the niche where it actually offers some value and other more capable platforms are starting to eat into the parts of the market for which it is poorly suited.
  - cmccabe 13y ago
    Hadoop can do realtime. One example is Cloudera Impala, which can do small SQL queries in seconds or less. Another, non-SQL example is using the Lambda Architecture (http://jameskinley.tumblr.com/post/37398560534/the-lambda-architecture-principles-for-architecting http://jameskinley.tumblr.com/post/37398560534/the-lambda-ar...) with something like Storm or S4.
    - jandrewrogers 13y ago
      Real-time is round-trip time: the latency between when new data is available for ingest and when that data shows up in queries. Database engines that are designed for these types of workloads have a round-trip latency measured in milliseconds, and some of them can do this while ingesting millions of records per second at petabyte scales. As in, very fast SQL queries concurrent with extremely high continuous ingest workloads. The term does not mean "fast queries". Otherwise, many parallel SQL databases would be "real-time" because some of those are even faster than Impala in this regard. A system that uses offline data loading is not real-time. Stream processing systems like Storm are real-time in this sense but are not databases. I don't think you can run ad hoc SQL queries against the data being processed by Storm nor can it store those streams to disk for future queries. They also aren't "big" data due to the limitations of the architecture.
      - cmccabe 13y ago
        You're missing the point, which is that the current limitations of the system may not be the limitations in the future.
        jandrewrogers 13y ago
        Current limitations do imply future limitations. Database engines (and similar software) necessarily embed a large number of tradeoffs and assumptions in their design at the most fundamental levels. Every line of code is written to support the target workload to the exclusion of others because of the tradeoffs required. Design decisions are extremely sticky over the long-term because they are tacitly embedded in every piece of code. The point you are missing is that (1) significantly altering the basic architectural characteristics is tantamount to a complete rewrite from scratch and (2) existing users design their applications around the design assumptions of the platform so fundamentally changing the architecture abandons the user base as well. This is why in practice almost everyone starts from a blank slate if they need new architectural capabilities. And in the few cases where they did manage to re-architect an existing system, not only did it cost more than doing it from scratch but they lost their user base anyway. I've designed these types of systems for a long time. When a database engine is first designed, its capabilities, limitations, and future performance ceiling are essentially set in stone. All potential modifications have to fit within those constraints so you need to be cognizant of the choices you are making but not really thinking about. An experienced database engine designer can look at a system design and tell you what types of data models and workloads the system will always do poorly on. And every database engine design has weaknesses designed into them. Hadoop just happens to be a particularly weak engine with a low ceiling in terms of its expressiveness.
- coolsunglasses 13y ago
  In addition to what the other respondent said, Hive and Impala make it redundant for most use-cases that could work on Hadoop anyway.
  - cmccabe 13y ago
    Hive still has really high query latency, since it starts MR jobs. So it's not really a replacement for what Drawn to Scale was trying to build. Impala certainly is, though. Impala has the additional advantage that your data does not need to be in HBase, but can be in any format in HDFS.
- cmccabe 13y ago
  Drawn to Scale was trying to sell a SQL-over-HBase solution. But there's already a better open source SQL-over-HBase solution out there, Salesforce's Phoenix.
gsteph22 13y ago
Hey -- CEO of DTS here. Quick word on the tech -- it was basically a clone of Google F1, with full ANSI SQL support. It was damn fast and could handle tens of thousands of connections on a modest cluster. Way more than Salesforce's Phoenix, which was a small subset of SQL and focused on analytics. We failed for human reasons :)

32 points by dmor 13y ago

I know nothing about this company, so perhaps I have answered my own question, but... How does a SQL-on-Hadoop solution, especially one of the first on the market, fail in this big data-obsessed investment climate?

jandrewrogers 13y ago
The issue is that Hadoop, once you strip away the hype, is a terrible analytical database system. It was designed for a narrow analytic use case but has been sold far beyond its capability and no amount of wrapping or abstraction will make the reality of the underlying architecture go away. Consequently, you have a crowded market of companies that try to differentiate by modding Hadoop to make it do things it really can't do well for fundamental computer science reasons. So it is both a highly competitive market and only marginal value is being added to the base Hadoop platform that customers can discern. VCs know this and are mostly done with the Hadoop portion of the Big Data market. Most of the new growth is in non-Hadoop platforms with more capable architectures. It is a point of differentiation that they can handle many workloads (e.g. real-time) and many data models (e.g. geospatial) that Hadoop fundamentally cannot handle well. It is the natural evolution of the hype cycle. Hadoop is being pushed back into the niche where it actually offers some value and other more capable platforms are starting to eat into the parts of the market for which it is poorly suited.
- cmccabe 13y ago
  Hadoop can do realtime. One example is Cloudera Impala, which can do small SQL queries in seconds or less. Another, non-SQL example is using the Lambda Architecture (http://jameskinley.tumblr.com/post/37398560534/the-lambda-architecture-principles-for-architecting http://jameskinley.tumblr.com/post/37398560534/the-lambda-ar...) with something like Storm or S4.
  - jandrewrogers 13y ago
    Real-time is round-trip time: the latency between when new data is available for ingest and when that data shows up in queries. Database engines that are designed for these types of workloads have a round-trip latency measured in milliseconds, and some of them can do this while ingesting millions of records per second at petabyte scales. As in, very fast SQL queries concurrent with extremely high continuous ingest workloads. The term does not mean "fast queries". Otherwise, many parallel SQL databases would be "real-time" because some of those are even faster than Impala in this regard. A system that uses offline data loading is not real-time. Stream processing systems like Storm are real-time in this sense but are not databases. I don't think you can run ad hoc SQL queries against the data being processed by Storm nor can it store those streams to disk for future queries. They also aren't "big" data due to the limitations of the architecture.
    - cmccabe 13y ago
      You're missing the point, which is that the current limitations of the system may not be the limitations in the future.
      - jandrewrogers 13y ago
        Current limitations do imply future limitations. Database engines (and similar software) necessarily embed a large number of tradeoffs and assumptions in their design at the most fundamental levels. Every line of code is written to support the target workload to the exclusion of others because of the tradeoffs required. Design decisions are extremely sticky over the long-term because they are tacitly embedded in every piece of code. The point you are missing is that (1) significantly altering the basic architectural characteristics is tantamount to a complete rewrite from scratch and (2) existing users design their applications around the design assumptions of the platform so fundamentally changing the architecture abandons the user base as well. This is why in practice almost everyone starts from a blank slate if they need new architectural capabilities. And in the few cases where they did manage to re-architect an existing system, not only did it cost more than doing it from scratch but they lost their user base anyway. I've designed these types of systems for a long time. When a database engine is first designed, its capabilities, limitations, and future performance ceiling are essentially set in stone. All potential modifications have to fit within those constraints so you need to be cognizant of the choices you are making but not really thinking about. An experienced database engine designer can look at a system design and tell you what types of data models and workloads the system will always do poorly on. And every database engine design has weaknesses designed into them. Hadoop just happens to be a particularly weak engine with a low ceiling in terms of its expressiveness.
coolsunglasses 13y ago
In addition to what the other respondent said, Hive and Impala make it redundant for most use-cases that could work on Hadoop anyway.
- cmccabe 13y ago
  Hive still has really high query latency, since it starts MR jobs. So it's not really a replacement for what Drawn to Scale was trying to build. Impala certainly is, though. Impala has the additional advantage that your data does not need to be in HBase, but can be in any format in HDFS.
cmccabe 13y ago
Drawn to Scale was trying to sell a SQL-over-HBase solution. But there's already a better open source SQL-over-HBase solution out there, Salesforce's Phoenix.

gsteph22 13y ago

Hey -- CEO of DTS here. Quick word on the tech -- it was basically a clone of Google F1, with full ANSI SQL support. It was damn fast and could handle tens of thousands of connections on a modest cluster. Way more than Salesforce's Phoenix, which was a small subset of SQL and focused on analytics. We failed for human reasons :)