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It's a sad reality that FOSS is about the developers scratching their own itches, and not really about user level polish. That's what paid businesses are for. U

It's a sad reality that FOSS is about the developers scratching their own itches, and not really about user level polish. That's what paid businesses are for. User bugs are hard and not sexy and probably not fun to developers, which is why they are punted to the bottom. I guess it all depends on what factors you want to optimize for, like fun or success.

pyre 13y ago
I thought that IBM was behind Eclipse, hence the name being a jab at Sun (who created Java, and 'owned' it at the time). That seems more than just a bunch of random people 'scratching an itch.'
- jamesaguilar 13y ago
  Given the Twitter comment thread, it seems like IBM is not as involved as it used to be.
phillmv 13y ago
I wouldn't conflate the institutional problems plaguing Eclipse with a strict FOSS/paid business dichotomy here, especially because Eclipse was started at IBM, and continues to be funded and led by IBM/Oracle, etc. It's tempting to make these sorts of claims because a mild level of user hostility plagues most FOSS gui apps that we encounter, but I think it's more useful to think instead of how difficult it apparently is for organizations to make effective UX design decisions. It's equally likely that a "horrifyingly designed UI" (much like Eclipse) came out of an Enterprise Software shop. None of the incentives are aligned toward optimizing user experience (i.e. rarely do the people who use the software the most have any say in how it gets built). And, because the way responsibilities are divided (i.e. one team per set of functionality, I imagine), no one in the leadership structure is empowered to make big changes that affect everyone; and so you're left with small incremental improvements and shitty error messages.
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  When it was VisualAge, it seemed like a pretty good UI back in the day, and compared favorably to the Borland and Microsoft products in use then. So I think maybe IBM can be let off the hook some.
  - mongol 13y ago
    Certainly. When Eclipse arrived, it was better than its alternatives, and it has not become strictly worse. More complicated maybe. But it is still a good IDE, it is just that IDEA is better, and expectations have changed.

pyre 13y ago

I thought that IBM was behind Eclipse, hence the name being a jab at Sun (who created Java, and 'owned' it at the time). That seems more than just a bunch of random people 'scratching an itch.'

jamesaguilar 13y ago
Given the Twitter comment thread, it seems like IBM is not as involved as it used to be.

phillmv 13y ago

I wouldn't conflate the institutional problems plaguing Eclipse with a strict FOSS/paid business dichotomy here, especially because Eclipse was started at IBM, and continues to be funded and led by IBM/Oracle, etc. It's tempting to make these sorts of claims because a mild level of user hostility plagues most FOSS gui apps that we encounter, but I think it's more useful to think instead of how difficult it apparently is for organizations to make effective UX design decisions. It's equally likely that a "horrifyingly designed UI" (much like Eclipse) came out of an Enterprise Software shop. None of the incentives are aligned toward optimizing user experience (i.e. rarely do the people who use the software the most have any say in how it gets built). And, because the way responsibilities are divided (i.e. one team per set of functionality, I imagine), no one in the leadership structure is empowered to make big changes that affect everyone; and so you're left with small incremental improvements and shitty error messages.

nsxwolf 13y ago
When it was VisualAge, it seemed like a pretty good UI back in the day, and compared favorably to the Borland and Microsoft products in use then. So I think maybe IBM can be let off the hook some.
- mongol 13y ago
  Certainly. When Eclipse arrived, it was better than its alternatives, and it has not become strictly worse. More complicated maybe. But it is still a good IDE, it is just that IDEA is better, and expectations have changed.