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> became little shits no child just becomes a "little shit". It takes a lot of time and effort to create one. Children have some certain negative aspects in t

> became little shits no child just becomes a "little shit". It takes a lot of time and effort to create one. Children have some certain negative aspects in them and have some positive aspects in them. Parenting is all about making good aspects stronger and negative aspects weaker. Recently, my child started yelling like crazy. She will just start screaming at a restaurant thinking it's fun (3 year old). Or just yell at 3 am. I could yell back and make this negative aspect stronger, instead I enrolled her to the music classes to channel all this yelling energy into something good. Guess what, she yells less. It's all about the parents.

anon1685 13y ago
I couldn't agree more. There's a saying in Hebrew: "There are no bad kids, there are only kids who feel bad."
calinet6 13y ago
It really is. There are people who believe people are predestined and struck in stone, and that there are good people and bad people, and that if someone is bad or lazy or has bad characteristics there's nothing that can be done, it's just who they are. Those people are wrong and make horrible parents.
- fragsworth 13y ago
  The world isn't black and white. We're born with predispositions. Upbringing has some influence. But consider that all the parenting in the world can't make a retarded kid smart. How do you know there aren't other things in our brains that are difficult or can't be controlled?
  - calinet6 13y ago
    I absolutely agree, I think there definitely are. I'm not saying there are only 2 kinds of people, but that there's sort of a divide. This divide appears to be nearly dichotomous, and it seems to follow some pretty fundamental beliefs about humanity and our place in the world. It's no doubt a stochastic process leading to such a divide, and it's no doubt continuous, but there's a line where if you're on one side, you sort of think it's okay to use some negative reinforcement with people and that they need that to grow stronger (a self-reinforcing idea), and if you're on the other side you sort of think it's not really okay to punish (also a self-reinforcing idea), and the self-reinforcing nature of those ideas leads to their internal reinforcement to become stronger, such that we really do get clustering of individuals who all hold this strong belief about people, and reinforce each other. There are very few people in the middle of this, and while the child and the personality is not a dichotomy per se, the belief about punishment vs. reward; negative vs. positive reinforcement—is quite dichotomous, not because the world is black and white, but because of the effect of internal reinforcement, groupthink, and time. People gravitate to one side or the other, and having a middle way on these sorts of issues is not attractive to the human psyche or, as it turns out, the way ideas naturally propagate and grow within people. Politics works precisely the same way, and indeed shares many of the roots of this very opinion on humanity: does punishment work better, or does reward work better? Do we leave the poor to fend for themselves, or do we proactively help them due to their circumstances? It comes down to the way people believe humans work, and again, these ideas gravitate naturally toward opposite ends. It's quite sad, because reality really is somewhere in the middle, and an effective strategy would take into account the reality of human behavior in addition to the side effects of negative reinforcement and the benefits of positive reinforcement and result in a well-balanced type of policy or parenting style that's scientifically sound and based on truth. But that's not how we work with our offspring; we do what we believe is right and try to do better than our parents, and maybe if we read here or there that this or that is good for the kid, we'll take it into consideration. I truly believe most parents are trying to do what's best for their child, if they can, and it's ignorance and false beliefs about people in general that leads them to make mistakes. I think that's the gist of it. So you're right, the world isn't black and white, I appreciate you opening my eyes to the truth of the middle way and the truth behind the incomprehensible layers of complexity. It's just fascinating to me how people form ideas, and especially how dichotomous ideas take hold and self-reinforce, because I really think they do. I think it's one of the great problems we could solve in society in the next few dozen years with great benefit, but there's probably not anyone with the right mindset to study it correctly.
    - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
      Very interesting post. I definitely agree with you. There are two additional points I'd like to make. 1. >does punishment work better, or does reward work better? There are always two "variables" when dealing with a situation: a) person you're dealing with b) situation you're dealing with For situation A that involves Henry, you know that punhishment works better. For situation A that involves Jonathan you will know that reward works better. For situation B it might be just opposite for the given persons. So, you just adjust to get results. It's not like you are in the punishing camp and won't reward in another situation involving the same person or different one. It's all about results sometimes. You want to get your stuff done or your kid do what you want, right? Not just to punish or reward. That would be really hollow personality type. At least in my book. 2. >It's just fascinating to me how people form ideas, and especially how dichotomous ideas take hold and self-reinforce, because I really think they do. I think it's one of the great problems we could solve in society in the next few dozen years with great benefit, but there's probably not anyone with the right mindset to study it correctly. Well, this problem has been "solved" by politicians who are currently running show in the West. Ever heard of the term technocrat when talking about politicians? Left more efficient with the social issues? Let's have left there. Right more efficient with the economy? Let's do what right advocates there. What you described is what technocrat politicians believe in and do. And is the reason why our societies and economies are so messed up ;-)
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    If you were right Nature wouldn't make us to take care of our offspring for so many years. Can't quote the exact source at that point but I remember that I was taught at school that one of the charasteristics of homo sapiens that you will not find among other mammals is that we take care of our children for so long. There must be a reason for which homo sapiens take care of their offspring for 10+ years. Wouldn't you think? If it's irrelevant as you seem to claim then why we would be "wasting" years of our lives that could be spent more effectively?
    - fragsworth 13y ago
      You've set up a false dichotomy. I guess I have to reiterate, "the world isn't black and white". Suppose that 90% of our children can be made better through proper upbringing and 10% can't (by today's social standards of what is "better"). We'll still evolve a natural desire to try, because there's a huge change it will work properly, but sometimes it won't. I didn't even claim "this is true", I only suggest that this cannot be dismissed unless we see enough real evidence that proves otherwise.
      - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        >Suppose that 90% of our children can be made better through proper upbringing and 10% can't The problem you have instantly with this type of analysis is to know if you really can't for sure. I didn't speak till I was 5. I have rare genetic disorder (1 in 50,000 odds). At preschool I was labeled 'retarded' and 'not fit for primary school' by a teacher. My mom never gave up. I had the highest GED score in high school. I was vice-president of a Student's Union at the University. I work just a regular job, but I live comfortable life of a professional. How would you know who is a hopeless case and who is not? There is no way to know unless you try. Just like with starting a business, lol, you won't know if you're going to succeed unless you try. That's why we have moms Man. Because they always try and believe no matter what. And I think I'm a good example why Nature made them this way.

anon1685 13y ago

I couldn't agree more. There's a saying in Hebrew: "There are no bad kids, there are only kids who feel bad."

calinet6 13y ago

It really is. There are people who believe people are predestined and struck in stone, and that there are good people and bad people, and that if someone is bad or lazy or has bad characteristics there's nothing that can be done, it's just who they are. Those people are wrong and make horrible parents.

fragsworth 13y ago
The world isn't black and white. We're born with predispositions. Upbringing has some influence. But consider that all the parenting in the world can't make a retarded kid smart. How do you know there aren't other things in our brains that are difficult or can't be controlled?
- calinet6 13y ago
  I absolutely agree, I think there definitely are. I'm not saying there are only 2 kinds of people, but that there's sort of a divide. This divide appears to be nearly dichotomous, and it seems to follow some pretty fundamental beliefs about humanity and our place in the world. It's no doubt a stochastic process leading to such a divide, and it's no doubt continuous, but there's a line where if you're on one side, you sort of think it's okay to use some negative reinforcement with people and that they need that to grow stronger (a self-reinforcing idea), and if you're on the other side you sort of think it's not really okay to punish (also a self-reinforcing idea), and the self-reinforcing nature of those ideas leads to their internal reinforcement to become stronger, such that we really do get clustering of individuals who all hold this strong belief about people, and reinforce each other. There are very few people in the middle of this, and while the child and the personality is not a dichotomy per se, the belief about punishment vs. reward; negative vs. positive reinforcement—is quite dichotomous, not because the world is black and white, but because of the effect of internal reinforcement, groupthink, and time. People gravitate to one side or the other, and having a middle way on these sorts of issues is not attractive to the human psyche or, as it turns out, the way ideas naturally propagate and grow within people. Politics works precisely the same way, and indeed shares many of the roots of this very opinion on humanity: does punishment work better, or does reward work better? Do we leave the poor to fend for themselves, or do we proactively help them due to their circumstances? It comes down to the way people believe humans work, and again, these ideas gravitate naturally toward opposite ends. It's quite sad, because reality really is somewhere in the middle, and an effective strategy would take into account the reality of human behavior in addition to the side effects of negative reinforcement and the benefits of positive reinforcement and result in a well-balanced type of policy or parenting style that's scientifically sound and based on truth. But that's not how we work with our offspring; we do what we believe is right and try to do better than our parents, and maybe if we read here or there that this or that is good for the kid, we'll take it into consideration. I truly believe most parents are trying to do what's best for their child, if they can, and it's ignorance and false beliefs about people in general that leads them to make mistakes. I think that's the gist of it. So you're right, the world isn't black and white, I appreciate you opening my eyes to the truth of the middle way and the truth behind the incomprehensible layers of complexity. It's just fascinating to me how people form ideas, and especially how dichotomous ideas take hold and self-reinforce, because I really think they do. I think it's one of the great problems we could solve in society in the next few dozen years with great benefit, but there's probably not anyone with the right mindset to study it correctly.
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    Very interesting post. I definitely agree with you. There are two additional points I'd like to make. 1. >does punishment work better, or does reward work better? There are always two "variables" when dealing with a situation: a) person you're dealing with b) situation you're dealing with For situation A that involves Henry, you know that punhishment works better. For situation A that involves Jonathan you will know that reward works better. For situation B it might be just opposite for the given persons. So, you just adjust to get results. It's not like you are in the punishing camp and won't reward in another situation involving the same person or different one. It's all about results sometimes. You want to get your stuff done or your kid do what you want, right? Not just to punish or reward. That would be really hollow personality type. At least in my book. 2. >It's just fascinating to me how people form ideas, and especially how dichotomous ideas take hold and self-reinforce, because I really think they do. I think it's one of the great problems we could solve in society in the next few dozen years with great benefit, but there's probably not anyone with the right mindset to study it correctly. Well, this problem has been "solved" by politicians who are currently running show in the West. Ever heard of the term technocrat when talking about politicians? Left more efficient with the social issues? Let's have left there. Right more efficient with the economy? Let's do what right advocates there. What you described is what technocrat politicians believe in and do. And is the reason why our societies and economies are so messed up ;-)
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  If you were right Nature wouldn't make us to take care of our offspring for so many years. Can't quote the exact source at that point but I remember that I was taught at school that one of the charasteristics of homo sapiens that you will not find among other mammals is that we take care of our children for so long. There must be a reason for which homo sapiens take care of their offspring for 10+ years. Wouldn't you think? If it's irrelevant as you seem to claim then why we would be "wasting" years of our lives that could be spent more effectively?
  - fragsworth 13y ago
    You've set up a false dichotomy. I guess I have to reiterate, "the world isn't black and white". Suppose that 90% of our children can be made better through proper upbringing and 10% can't (by today's social standards of what is "better"). We'll still evolve a natural desire to try, because there's a huge change it will work properly, but sometimes it won't. I didn't even claim "this is true", I only suggest that this cannot be dismissed unless we see enough real evidence that proves otherwise.
    - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
      >Suppose that 90% of our children can be made better through proper upbringing and 10% can't The problem you have instantly with this type of analysis is to know if you really can't for sure. I didn't speak till I was 5. I have rare genetic disorder (1 in 50,000 odds). At preschool I was labeled 'retarded' and 'not fit for primary school' by a teacher. My mom never gave up. I had the highest GED score in high school. I was vice-president of a Student's Union at the University. I work just a regular job, but I live comfortable life of a professional. How would you know who is a hopeless case and who is not? There is no way to know unless you try. Just like with starting a business, lol, you won't know if you're going to succeed unless you try. That's why we have moms Man. Because they always try and believe no matter what. And I think I'm a good example why Nature made them this way.