5 ms·

Kim Dotcom Granted New Zealand Supreme Court Appeal Over U.S. Evidence

86 points by Lightning 13y ago

nutmeg 13y ago
Might want to change the title to note that it is the New Zealand Supreme Court, not the US Supreme Court.
- ihuman 13y ago
  The title is exactly the same as the post's title, as per HN guidelines.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Now that's a tough one. Follow the rules when the rule is (in this case) wrong.
contingencies 13y ago
This makes me proud to be a New Zealand citizen and to be considering moving there permanently after many years around the world. A hearty congratulations to fellow global internet-using (or not) citizens, and to Kim: you all deserved this win. Or as kiwi youth would nominally mumble: 'wicked cher bro'.
- mtgx 13y ago
  Well, don't get too happy: http://techliberty.org.nz/govt-proposes-gcsb-control-over-nz-communications-in-new-tics-bill/ http://techliberty.org.nz/govt-proposes-gcsb-control-over-nz...
  - contingencies 13y ago
    Nice site. But there's a later update to that post: http://techliberty.org.nz/does-tics-really-give-gcsb-control/ http://techliberty.org.nz/does-tics-really-give-gcsb-control...
- e40 13y ago
  As a US citizen, it makes me very happy that someone has stood up to the bullshit my government tries to pull.
  - kzrdude 13y ago
    Your government is exporting corruption. The best place to fight it would be at home, and it needs more attention (you know what's wrong, do something!).
    - youngerdryas 13y ago
      Was the minister held at gunpoint? No but NZ gets a pass. Great next time they don't have to worry they know everyone will give them a pass.
      - aclevernickname 13y ago
        I'm curious as to who you work for. Your post history seems to show that you respond to specific types of posts, and you're regularly downvoted to oblivion here. Forgive me for the Ad Hominem. As to your comment, a proper court was convened, and the process was correct. An excessive show of force was used, not for Dotcom particularly, but as a message/deterrent done in good faith to show others interested in going down this same path (of running an encrypted file locker, I guess). This is fully in accordance with all Commonwealth law systems, NZ included. I don't think anyone is making the argument that the NZ police were doing anything more than marching to the orders given to them (and ultimately supervised) by the US. None of the police on the scene were ever charged or reprimanded for any wrongdoing in the Dotcom Case. Why? Because they were just doing their job on a special day. They've all had terrorism training, and they were about to assist in the apprehension of an international terrorist (you know, like Assange, and Neij). Now, with this in mind, why did a public official resign due to this fully lawful raid? because the people demanded that he did. The people were unhappy, and wanted someone to take responsibility for this massive screw-up. When that happened, someone resigned. This means that NZ's government still listens to (and fears) its people, and that might hold true for the rest of the Commonwealth as well. Could you imagine if the US government actually listened to its people? Could you imagine if the US citizens actually cared?
- youngerdryas 13y ago
  If the NZ govt had known that US special forces were going to come in and capture Kim they likely would have tried to stop them. /s
- phyalow 13y ago
  *chea or chur!
  - Matsta 13y ago
    ^^ this. And now its Bo not Bro. eg. Chea bo
ziko 13y ago
I quite liked Kim. But lately he's been nothing else than a guy that's in media so much he becomes incredibly annoying (to hear news about him/her/them). Something similar to Lana del Rey in music business, Julian Assange in politics, Messi in football and Ryan Gosling in film. Meh.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  This is why it's so difficult to motivate the public about important issues outside the typical emotional hotbuttons: people get bored before the issue is resolved, the media can overload an issue with coverage to induce this boredom, or the issue is buried by overloading something completely irrelevant to societal wellbeing.
- zimbatm 13y ago
  Do you mean he's not entertaining you anymore ?
  - rhizome 13y ago
    Fight for your rights like a friendly puppy, or else.
- rhizome 13y ago
  Who cares about "annoying?"
princess3000 13y ago
Kim Dotcom is one of my favorite personalities... he's basically a real life James Bond villain, except that he's kind of the good guy. It's awesome to see him stand up to this stuff and even win against systems that want to see him fail completely.
- res0nat0r 13y ago
  He is far from a good guy. Read his bio on Wikipedia for more info on crimes he has been convicted for in the past: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom
- jagermo 13y ago
  I disagree. I know the discussion around him since he started his "hacking" career in Germany. He certainly knows how to show off and present himself, but I don't think there is much more substance to it. Attrition.org has a nice list about his actions [0]. While I applaud the push back and the increased interest in civil rights, I'm not really happy that it pushes Mr Kimble to a "hero status" and just gives him more credibility. [0]: http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/kimble/ http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/kimble/
  - ryanobjc 13y ago
    So a lot of his crimes are pretty far in the past now (20 years in some cases). So I'm thinking that "never forgive, never forget" is the motto here? Rehabilitation is not possible? I think you are forgetting that many "praiseworthy" individuals in history have dark pasts. Whitewashing your past to present the most favorable version of yourself has a long and honorable tradition. Recent examples would be Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. Older would be people like Rockafeller, JP Morgan and basically anyone having anything to do with the railroads. Personally though, I am attracted to people like Kim and Jobs not because of their "good image" but because they have a dark side. To use a super-hero analogy... I find Iron Man a much more compelling hero than superman. Why is this? Superman is basically the perfect person, he has few real moral dilemmas, nor does he have any lengthly struggles. Superman never has depression, dark thoughts, a dark legacy to overcome, and so on. Compared to the way Iron Man is portrayed in the recent movies, Iron Man/Stark is very human, has tons of flaws, but still manages to do good all in all. Stark has a dark legacy, both in his family and personally. He suffers from depression, anxiety, obsessive behavior, grandiose and offensive behavior. The interesting part comes from the struggle between the dark and the light. Only by embracing the light and dark sides of ourselves, can we truly grow past the dark parts and do good out there. Given the way our brains work, its practically a given that we are going to screw up in our younger years. Embrace your humanity.
umsm 13y ago
I'm sure the New Zealand Supreme Court is awesome, but I wonder how much traction this would've gotten if it was not publicized all around the world...
- te_chris 13y ago
  I'm not sure what you're trying to say? That NZ has a corrupt judiciary? It may be incestuous, but I think that's a (very big) stretch to call it corrupt and imply that, were it not for the media attention, it would be for sale.
  - umsm 13y ago
    Not at all. When this story first made headlines, I thought: Why did the NZ government allow the US to do this on their land in the first place? I just noticed that in the states, sometimes you don't necessarily get treated fairly in edge cases until you make a lot of noise (blogs, videos, etc.). Of course, IANAL and I have no idea how the legal system works...
ChuckMcM 13y ago
I find it particularly refreshing that New Zealand has pushed back on this as hard as they have.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- will_brown 13y ago
  I find this whole case very interesting (maybe I am wrong but I don't see the difference between MEGA and dropbox or Google Drive), but I too found the New Zealand push back to be eye opening and refreshing as well. As a US citizen, reading about the paramilitary assault style arrest, I figured there would be the typical international outrage - that the US/FBI is pulling the strings of foreign governments. I never once gave consideration to the notion that governments using helicopters and military style weapons in an arrest, would offend the sensibilities of ordinary citizenry. NZ's condemnation of the military style assault and the actual apologies from NZ officials was the most eye opening. This made me realize how engrained and accepted these types of operations are in the US (at least for me personally), even for non-violent crimes - a local example that comes to mind was the military style extraction of Elian Gonzalez. There is even a phrase used among lawyers that you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride, meaning you will be arrested guilty or not, the time to make your case is not during the arrest but in a court of law...I used to laugh about this phrase, now it disgusts me.
  - youngerdryas 13y ago
    Kim loved to pose with automatic weapons and is a felon, the only thing NZ had to apologize for in regards to how they handled the raid was not realizing he is a clown. Edit: No one seems to be arguing that he is not a clown, but I can't blame them as that is a hard argument to make.
    - bd_at_rivenhill 13y ago
      This is no indication that he would violently resist arrest, which is the only reasonable justification for these types of raids. Military tactics should be confined to the cases where there is a risk of violence; intimidation should not be a part of the process of serving an arrest warrant in the average case.

86 points by Lightning 13y ago

nutmeg 13y ago

Might want to change the title to note that it is the New Zealand Supreme Court, not the US Supreme Court.

ihuman 13y ago
The title is exactly the same as the post's title, as per HN guidelines.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  Now that's a tough one. Follow the rules when the rule is (in this case) wrong.

contingencies 13y ago

This makes me proud to be a New Zealand citizen and to be considering moving there permanently after many years around the world. A hearty congratulations to fellow global internet-using (or not) citizens, and to Kim: you all deserved this win. Or as kiwi youth would nominally mumble: 'wicked cher bro'.

mtgx 13y ago
Well, don't get too happy: http://techliberty.org.nz/govt-proposes-gcsb-control-over-nz-communications-in-new-tics-bill/ http://techliberty.org.nz/govt-proposes-gcsb-control-over-nz...
- contingencies 13y ago
  Nice site. But there's a later update to that post: http://techliberty.org.nz/does-tics-really-give-gcsb-control/ http://techliberty.org.nz/does-tics-really-give-gcsb-control...
e40 13y ago
As a US citizen, it makes me very happy that someone has stood up to the bullshit my government tries to pull.
- kzrdude 13y ago
  Your government is exporting corruption. The best place to fight it would be at home, and it needs more attention (you know what's wrong, do something!).
  - youngerdryas 13y ago
    Was the minister held at gunpoint? No but NZ gets a pass. Great next time they don't have to worry they know everyone will give them a pass.
    - aclevernickname 13y ago
      I'm curious as to who you work for. Your post history seems to show that you respond to specific types of posts, and you're regularly downvoted to oblivion here. Forgive me for the Ad Hominem. As to your comment, a proper court was convened, and the process was correct. An excessive show of force was used, not for Dotcom particularly, but as a message/deterrent done in good faith to show others interested in going down this same path (of running an encrypted file locker, I guess). This is fully in accordance with all Commonwealth law systems, NZ included. I don't think anyone is making the argument that the NZ police were doing anything more than marching to the orders given to them (and ultimately supervised) by the US. None of the police on the scene were ever charged or reprimanded for any wrongdoing in the Dotcom Case. Why? Because they were just doing their job on a special day. They've all had terrorism training, and they were about to assist in the apprehension of an international terrorist (you know, like Assange, and Neij). Now, with this in mind, why did a public official resign due to this fully lawful raid? because the people demanded that he did. The people were unhappy, and wanted someone to take responsibility for this massive screw-up. When that happened, someone resigned. This means that NZ's government still listens to (and fears) its people, and that might hold true for the rest of the Commonwealth as well. Could you imagine if the US government actually listened to its people? Could you imagine if the US citizens actually cared?
youngerdryas 13y ago
If the NZ govt had known that US special forces were going to come in and capture Kim they likely would have tried to stop them. /s
phyalow 13y ago
*chea or chur!
- Matsta 13y ago
  ^^ this. And now its Bo not Bro. eg. Chea bo

ziko 13y ago

I quite liked Kim. But lately he's been nothing else than a guy that's in media so much he becomes incredibly annoying (to hear news about him/her/them). Something similar to Lana del Rey in music business, Julian Assange in politics, Messi in football and Ryan Gosling in film. Meh.

nitrogen 13y ago
This is why it's so difficult to motivate the public about important issues outside the typical emotional hotbuttons: people get bored before the issue is resolved, the media can overload an issue with coverage to induce this boredom, or the issue is buried by overloading something completely irrelevant to societal wellbeing.
zimbatm 13y ago
Do you mean he's not entertaining you anymore ?
- rhizome 13y ago
  Fight for your rights like a friendly puppy, or else.
rhizome 13y ago
Who cares about "annoying?"

princess3000 13y ago

Kim Dotcom is one of my favorite personalities... he's basically a real life James Bond villain, except that he's kind of the good guy. It's awesome to see him stand up to this stuff and even win against systems that want to see him fail completely.

res0nat0r 13y ago
He is far from a good guy. Read his bio on Wikipedia for more info on crimes he has been convicted for in the past: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom
jagermo 13y ago
I disagree. I know the discussion around him since he started his "hacking" career in Germany. He certainly knows how to show off and present himself, but I don't think there is much more substance to it. Attrition.org has a nice list about his actions [0]. While I applaud the push back and the increased interest in civil rights, I'm not really happy that it pushes Mr Kimble to a "hero status" and just gives him more credibility. [0]: http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/kimble/ http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/kimble/
- ryanobjc 13y ago
  So a lot of his crimes are pretty far in the past now (20 years in some cases). So I'm thinking that "never forgive, never forget" is the motto here? Rehabilitation is not possible? I think you are forgetting that many "praiseworthy" individuals in history have dark pasts. Whitewashing your past to present the most favorable version of yourself has a long and honorable tradition. Recent examples would be Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. Older would be people like Rockafeller, JP Morgan and basically anyone having anything to do with the railroads. Personally though, I am attracted to people like Kim and Jobs not because of their "good image" but because they have a dark side. To use a super-hero analogy... I find Iron Man a much more compelling hero than superman. Why is this? Superman is basically the perfect person, he has few real moral dilemmas, nor does he have any lengthly struggles. Superman never has depression, dark thoughts, a dark legacy to overcome, and so on. Compared to the way Iron Man is portrayed in the recent movies, Iron Man/Stark is very human, has tons of flaws, but still manages to do good all in all. Stark has a dark legacy, both in his family and personally. He suffers from depression, anxiety, obsessive behavior, grandiose and offensive behavior. The interesting part comes from the struggle between the dark and the light. Only by embracing the light and dark sides of ourselves, can we truly grow past the dark parts and do good out there. Given the way our brains work, its practically a given that we are going to screw up in our younger years. Embrace your humanity.

umsm 13y ago

I'm sure the New Zealand Supreme Court is awesome, but I wonder how much traction this would've gotten if it was not publicized all around the world...

te_chris 13y ago
I'm not sure what you're trying to say? That NZ has a corrupt judiciary? It may be incestuous, but I think that's a (very big) stretch to call it corrupt and imply that, were it not for the media attention, it would be for sale.
- umsm 13y ago
  Not at all. When this story first made headlines, I thought: Why did the NZ government allow the US to do this on their land in the first place? I just noticed that in the states, sometimes you don't necessarily get treated fairly in edge cases until you make a lot of noise (blogs, videos, etc.). Of course, IANAL and I have no idea how the legal system works...

ChuckMcM 13y ago

I find it particularly refreshing that New Zealand has pushed back on this as hard as they have.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
will_brown 13y ago
I find this whole case very interesting (maybe I am wrong but I don't see the difference between MEGA and dropbox or Google Drive), but I too found the New Zealand push back to be eye opening and refreshing as well. As a US citizen, reading about the paramilitary assault style arrest, I figured there would be the typical international outrage - that the US/FBI is pulling the strings of foreign governments. I never once gave consideration to the notion that governments using helicopters and military style weapons in an arrest, would offend the sensibilities of ordinary citizenry. NZ's condemnation of the military style assault and the actual apologies from NZ officials was the most eye opening. This made me realize how engrained and accepted these types of operations are in the US (at least for me personally), even for non-violent crimes - a local example that comes to mind was the military style extraction of Elian Gonzalez. There is even a phrase used among lawyers that you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride, meaning you will be arrested guilty or not, the time to make your case is not during the arrest but in a court of law...I used to laugh about this phrase, now it disgusts me.
- youngerdryas 13y ago
  Kim loved to pose with automatic weapons and is a felon, the only thing NZ had to apologize for in regards to how they handled the raid was not realizing he is a clown. Edit: No one seems to be arguing that he is not a clown, but I can't blame them as that is a hard argument to make.
  - bd_at_rivenhill 13y ago
    This is no indication that he would violently resist arrest, which is the only reasonable justification for these types of raids. Military tactics should be confined to the cases where there is a risk of violence; intimidation should not be a part of the process of serving an arrest warrant in the average case.