18 ms·

Not Having A Real Job

233 points by mkrecny 13y ago

Articulate 13y ago
I quit using terms like "real job" and "real world" a long time ago (back when I was working as a deckhand on a ship). I don't like that it implies that you are doing something less- that other people are more legitimate because they are on the beaten path. Now I use the term "regular job" and "regular world". On another note, some people thrive in the solo-work arrangement. My creativity has soared since I quit having senseless meetings, or bureaucratic red tape to get through. Good that you recognized that you don't naturally build social networks- As my business has grown it forced me out to meet so many people that now I have reserved entire days to be back in my private office working alone- hoping I can tap into the creativity that comes from solitude.
- mkrecny 13y ago
  Beautiful, thank you.
- melindajb 13y ago
  your handle describes your post perfectly. "regular job, regular world." I shall use that!
- jholman 13y ago
  Great quote from the book 'Net Magic', by Lee Siegel: “I’m writing a book on magic,” I explain, and I’m asked, “Real magic?” By real magic people mean miracles, thaumaturgical acts, and supernatural powers. “No,” I answer: “Conjuring tricks, not real magic.” Real magic, in other words, refers to the magic that is not real, while the magic that is real, that can actually be done, is not real magic. The parallel is limited, of course, because you can be employed in a "real job" / "regular job". But the point is, when people say "real job" they don't mean that other jobs are not real things, they mean that they don't fully have the property of job-ness. And I'd argue that they're right, and that's exactly why many people don't want to have a "real job". Some people want a job that has only SOME of the properties of job-ness. (some of the properties of "job-ness": pays enough to raise a family, has reasonable security, has the thing they call "benefits", telegraphs information about you to people who want to make a snap judgement about you (including e.g. your extended family), keeps you busy from 8am to 6pm, gives you a defined social role and a defined social context)
phillmv 13y ago
Let me get this straight. Your solution to feeling socially isolated, having no fulfilling hobbies outside of work, and your apparent unhappiness, despite your success, is to open a co-working space? Folks, this is as clear as an indictment of the culture as you get. I work out of a co-working space. They're great. I am slowly working my way up the informal foosball rankings. And I'm not particularly good at living life, but we're still working at the financial stability part. There is more to life than work, even if you were blessed with huge natural reservoirs of motivation. Learn to paint. Learn to cook. Learn another language. Write fiction, investigate some non-fiction, learn how to take beautiful photographs (pro-tip: your iPhone is an amazing camera), READ BOOKS, start playing a team sport in an adult rec league, go camping, if you can afford it GO TRAVELLING, oh my god you have the money and total flex but you won't go travelling?, VOLUNTEER at the homeless shelter, at the library, at the office of a political cause you believe in, INTERACT WITH OTHER HUMAN BEINGS [in a setting outside of "lol tech startups" once in a while].
- Bulkington 13y ago
  As is often mentioned on HN: in times of great distress/confusion/boredom/pessimism, stop up the intertubes and get some exercise. Fresh fruit and vegetables are good, too. (So are junior-college girls, but I don't need the bad karma.)
- mkrecny 13y ago
  Thanks for your wisdom Phil.
  - phillmv 13y ago
    I'm figuring this stuff out. I'm on the "adult rec league" stage. These shiny textfields and the illusion of pseudonymity, even when you use your real name, make it easy to write and sound really snarky and mean and I'm sorry if I came off that way. I think what I'm trying to say is, you sound unhappy, dude. Trying to up my empathy, in your context maybe you do just need work-mates. I convinced a friend to quit his job for precisely the same reason: after a few months of working out of coffee shops and being alone all the time I was starting to go nutty. It's just the lead-in to your decision sounds so… morose, and we're all capable individuals here who should find ways to not be morose. I don't know, maybe I mis-read your tone.
michaelochurch 13y ago
The social life that comes with a typical office job is a false security. Your boss can take it away at any time. Never get so beholden to one person. You need to start going to Meetups, hanging out with different sorts of people, etc. After you leave, you're lucky if you're in touch with one or two of your former co-workers. If your boss is sour about you leaving, or if he fires you in a piss-fit, he'll actually turn a lot of people against you. It sounds like you're already coming to the right path. Generating a social life without an office context is harder, but it's a valuable skill because almost everyone successful has active out-of-office ties.
- philbarr 13y ago
  I think this depends purely on the type of people who work at your job. I now work at home and have done for 2 years, but still meet up with colleagues from my previous job occasionally, and they still talk to me and we discuss life/software/beer etc. The company I work for now has meetups 2-3 times a year, and whilst the people are generally nice enough, I wouldn't really consider keeping in touch if I left. I doubt they would bother either. I also have a group of friends from my childhood around and we hang out alot. I consider this extremely important and make specific efforts to organise activities and nights out so we don't lose touch. People really don't put enough effort into friendships to stay in touch. They often treat friends as disposable when it comes to their careers which is sad. Friends > cash, every time.
- benatkin 13y ago
  I know this feeling, and I know it well. I agree with philbarr that it depends on your job. I think it also depends on your position in the social structure. But it's just another way that a job may seem better at the time than it actually is. I try to be skeptical of the perks of what I do, and put the main things (pay, gaining experience, commute time, comfort, etc) first.
aashaykumar92 13y ago
It's a great post, but I was a bit confused by the purpose of Mircrohaus and ventured on to the website. Unfortunately, I'm still a bit confused. Not confused by what it is, but by what the purpose is? I mean, why would people be attracted to this over other incubators? The application process, although seemingly informal, stil exists so I guess what I'm looking for is a sort-of pitch about Microhaus.
- mkrecny 13y ago
  "why would people be attracted to this over other incubators" It's focused on developing you -as a person- rather than a product. Microhaus doesn't take equity in whatever you're working on.
  - w1ntermute 13y ago
    Then what does Microhaus get in return? Basically, how are you planning on keeping this thing afloat?
- throwaway1979 13y ago
  Myles doesn't need an incubator. This is not about giving away a % of your company for advice/connections/financing/whatever. He (and others like him) just want to work in an environment filled with like-minded individuals.
whichdan 13y ago
I telecommute, and I can definitely relate to most of this post. There's something really refreshing about being able to step out at 1pm, run for an hour, hit a bar for lunch, meander back home, and settle back into coding again. It feels great, but especially in the winter months, the lack of daily social interaction catches up with you really quickly.
FD3SA 13y ago
I cannot praise this enough. The greatest achievements in the world have come from a gathering of bright and passionate people, discussing and vetting their ideas together. As deep thinkers, we tend to seek isolation to focus the entirety of our mental faculty on a particular problem. In this quest to make efficient use of our biological computing device, we forget that we are indeed humans forged through evolutionary processes, and that our very sanity depends on a positively reinforcing social foundation. The most difficult task is finding like minded individuals, who would spontaneously coalesce as if by a force of nature but are held apart due to spatial or temporal separation. Once this initial barrier is overcome, such minds become inseparable and often go on to do great things. History is abound with examples such as Godel and Einstein, whose friendship began in the most extraordinary of circumstances but ended up changing our very understanding of the universe. So good luck, and god speed!
- thoughtcriminal 13y ago
  The greatest achievements in the world have come from a gathering of bright and passionate people, discussing and vetting their ideas together. Nonsense. Any equal number of "greatest" achievements have come from a individuals working persistently in solitude, in humble settings.
  - thirdtruck 13y ago
    Each of which only only mattered to the world at large because many others proceeded to spread and implement those achievements.
    - obviouslygreen 13y ago
      Sure... now we're debating on what proportion of an undefined set conforms to whose preconceptions. This is intelligent. We could avoid all of this if people would just learn to make their points without also having to jump to outrageous and/or totally unsubstantiated conclusions in addition to just stating what would otherwise be a perfectly valid opinion.
ckurdziel 13y ago
There's a huge amount of creativity that comes from solitude - I've often felt that the biggest issue for me with having a "real job" is the fact that I can't carve out enough time to be truly alone with my thoughts. The grass is always greener... :)
- psionski 13y ago
  I was JUST starting to think "Oh, God... I'm reaching the end of the comments and no one has suggested to read Nietzsche and enjoy your solitude, not a single person!" Thank you, sir, for representing the underrepresented!
goloxc 13y ago
this is pretty sweet
DoubleMalt 13y ago
Can I fork microha.us on github? No seriously, I am currently thinking about renting office space, and this seems to be a great idea so I will think about using it for a microha.us session at the beginning.
yesimahuman 13y ago
Running a company has been one of the most lonely things I've ever done. I think it's one of the hardest parts of running a company. It's no wonder founders try to form social groups amongst themselves. I started a weekly coffee meetup in Madison, WI which has been great for reducing some of that loneliness. We also hired more people which has really helped as well! Best of luck with Microhaus!
xsace 13y ago
For a moment I thought I was reading a description of my life.
- jeepey 13y ago
  Second that! And a pretty accurate one. Good to know I'm not the only one ;)
- micahroberson 13y ago
  Same thoughts here! I'm not sure starting my own incubator would fill the void, but I can see how joining something like Microha.us might be nice. Anybody know of anything along the same lines in SF?
- citizens 13y ago
  Same here. I even live in the neighborhood.
- tobeportable 13y ago
  +1, get a child and spice it up
Aardwolf 13y ago
Off topic, sorry, but just a question in general about this type of link on HN: Why is the font on that page so big? Isn't it better of everyone consistently uses the same font size for content, rather than some pages using a big font for articles while others use a small font? In the past these "large font" pages did not really exist, it's a recent phenomenon...
- estebank 13y ago
  In the past, when? In the past, screen resolution was lower on screens roughly the same size as we use now. I find it weird how rarely people (including myself) modify the zoom level of the webpages they visit, unless they have vision problems, or are using a phone/tablet. Erring on the side of caution, too big a font is better than too small a font. The default font size for `p` is 16px, and it can be thought of the ideal size for text[1] on the browser. People will argue for bigger or smaller fonts[2], but I think that I see more people complaining about small fonts than big fonts, and with new higher resolution displays that have inconsistent ways of displaying pages across devices (is 1px a physical pixel? It isn't supposed to be, but most of the time it is, so front end designers assume they are, but the display size doesn't change... everybody uses a 1200x900 screen, right?), just make it readable on small high resolution displays. Having said that, a much bigger problem than small/big fonts is low contrast font color. If people using zoom is uncommon, people using personalised style sheets are unicorns. [1]: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/10/07/16-pixels-body-copy-anything-less-costly-mistake/ http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/10/07/16-pixels-body-co... [2]: http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/211/is-there-an-optimal-font-size http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/211/is-there-an-optima...
hkmurakami 13y ago
Doing things like hosting Wednesday board game nights, weekend hikes, and Sunday brunches have kept me "sane" in this regard. They're all great activities to have conversations.
sghill 13y ago
Great post. Thank you for sharing this. > Surely, I would fill my days with an eclectic mix of hobbies and spontaneous travel, funding the whole thing with the ultimate passive income stream. Was this the original goal for not having a 'real' job? > But for some reason I can't do that. I'm not good at using my free time for hobbies. I typically spend it thinking about work, or prototyping the 'next thing'. This part was most attention-grabbing for me. Did you have many hobbies before you became so deeply involved in tech? I like to think I'd be outside playing golf a few times a week, but that's something I used to do before getting a tech job in a city.
wolfowitz 13y ago
Am I the only one who thinks this is a load whiny written pseudo viral advertising for that guys 'oh so different' co working space? I mean I pretty much resonated with all of this right until the last paragraph, where it suddenly turns into some catchy written ad for Microhaus - an experimental incubator for people who dream bigger than the rest
r0s 13y ago
Coming in from the other direction: I have no problem with the social networking, and I've spent years working part-time or at unconventional jobs just to have free time. I'm good at the lone gun lifestyle, maybe too good. Now with many "interesting" but unprofitable web projects... still trying to get on that gravy train. So I bounce from school to more serious work trying to build real development skills. Hopefully I can bring some product to market, or make something. That's the hard part for me.
virtualwhys 13y ago
Haven't had a real job in 10 years, luckily. Instead of going to the gym, I grab my board and surf for an hour or 2, waves/wind permitting. Travel and code, not too shabby. Make far less $$ than I would in a 9-5 (+ commute/traffic) office setting, but quality of life is much better. I feel like absolute garbage without getting out in nature, dropping the screens for awhile. YMMV of course, some people are at home in the hustle and bustle of the big shi$$y -- can only handle that for a few weeks max before I get restless for the unknown.
- oftenwrong 13y ago
  What kind of work do you do?
  - virtualwhys 13y ago
    Freelance web dev, JVM/Scala.
    - mtrimpe 13y ago
      How do you find Enterprisey clients that let you work remotely? Is it also word of mouth like most regular enterprise work or do you make yourself heard in some specific communities?
      - virtualwhys 13y ago
        "How do you find Enterprisey clients that let you work remotely?" Good question ;-) All word of mouth -- projects run $25K on the high end. I own a couple of application servers that I run in colo stateside, and choose the stack for the client accordingly; tends to be Scala/Slick/Play of late, smitten with Scala. Side note: I did run into a fellow surfer/coder in Hawaii a couple of winters ago doing the travel/work thing. He made around $200K/year doing C#/SQL Server work for a big Atlanta based company. As long as he made the weekly conference call (4AM Hawaii time) they had no problem with him telecommuting -- France is nice like that, got a 6 hour delay before start of business day EST ;-)
chasing 13y ago
So you're working from home and it's making you feel crappy because you're not socializing, you're working bizarre hours, and you're not capable of picking up non-work-related hobbies? Why jump into immediately advertising your co-working space? Feels like a weird bait-and-switch. Why not stick out the work-from-home thing for a bit and actually see if you can solve some of these problems? Because, yes, if you can then you'll have a nicely flexible life. Hell, start with working only during normal business hours. Do things with buddies in the evenings. Join a sports league. Then see how you feel. Right now, this reads a bit like: "I tried using chopsticks instead of a fork for the first time, and after poking myself in the eye a dozen times, I decided chopsticks aren't for me and that I should instead open a fork factory." Also: I work from home. I am an independent developer. It's a "real job." Can we please put to rest this stupid idea that freelancing isn't "real?" It's very real.
- mansigandhi 13y ago
  I completely agree. This felt like such a bait-and-switch post. And as someone who works from home - I have as much a social life as earlier (in a "real" job).
seivan 13y ago
Since I started making my own product and freelancing, I've increased my OSS contribution by a lot. I got eleven eleven days streaking on Github and the contribution graph looks heavy since I quit - and I have a hard time giving it up. The last two months, I've done four different libraries for iOS that are used by other people as well as bugfixes, new features and readme updates for other libraries that I use. All of this, because I can pick what hours I do client work and I don't spend two hours a day traveling to & from an office. Job security is fake. Especially pre-profit places.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
I'm going to be a bit contrarian here it seems and say "good for you!" There are a number of quasi-social-business get organizations which exist for the exact same reasons you outlined in your post. That old chestnut the Chamber of Commerce has been a social get together for small business owners forever where they could get together and share issues and influence the politicians to make a more business friendly environment. What you have started, could potentially evolve into the technology equivalent of such organizations. Getting together with other entrepreneurs to talk about shared issues and ideas, challenges and various technologies, etc. All while working at your own independent businesses but largely in a similar 'space' (the Internet). There is tremendous efficiency to be gained there, an leverage in making changes.
- sixdimensional 13y ago
  I have been thinking lately that the Chamber of Commerce in most cities should be evolving into what you are describing. They could provide co-working space, events, support, advisors, etc - they could be these mini-incubators and bring new businesses into their respective areas. In my dreams I see many small "silicon valleys" (or better put, centers for innovation and incubation) all over the US. I know the ones around where I live certainly don't do this enough, although they do try to help connect businesses in the community, and they do have some free presentations that are nice.
ziko 13y ago
Best HN post since I've joined. I was in a very similar situation not so long ago. I know a few others as well. Last month, I watched a lot of snooker as there was a World Championship in Sheffield. Ronnie O'Sullivan [who later won the cup] said something on that same matter. You have a fairly successful life. You have someone who is very close to you. You are good at something. Yet you lack one very important ingredient to achieve total happiness. I don't know what is the word for that ingredient. Basically, you need to wake up in the morning, (briefly) commute and work from there. Working from home is a great thing but not for everyone. You need an office. You need something away from your flat to work at. You need that commute even if it's just staring at the nature and greeting the doorman or mailman. That's how it works for us (people who have this same problem). I applaud microha.us. It's a great idea and it crossed my mind to do something similar in the UK.
orangethirty 13y ago
What sort of paperwork do participants have to sign in order to join this "incubator"?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Gepsens 13y ago
Isn't the fundamental problem that you spent 24/7 coding rather than "not having a real job" ?
3pt14159 13y ago
mkrecny, forget about the haters, I think it's cool. At the end of the day we're just communicating on HN with abstractions based on less than a minute of thinking. A month with six cool people sounds like a blast.
arcosdev 13y ago
I need to get out of this industry
conductr 13y ago
I can relate to your feelings of solitude. I had similar difficulties coping with self-employment when my business was basically on autopilot. The fact is, just because I was able to quit my job everyone else still works M-F and finding ways to stay stimulated becomes a challenge. My solution was to just get another job. I work a corporate job now, which is weird because I too had grand thoughts of the Tim Ferris lifestyle. It is nice to know that I do this job as a way to pass the time and remain intellectually challenged. I've already turned down a few promotions because I just don't want the responsibly. Also, if things change or my boss is a prick I have no problems just walking out and never looking back. He knows this and it has turned out to be a great manager/employee relationship because of it.
- sixdimensional 13y ago
  Genuine question - was your business (on "autopilot") successful enough to live off of, permanently? It seems to me if you're "free" from the need to work (i.e. paying the bills), you then get to choose what to do with yourself. It sounds like you chose to keep working a "job". Which is cool - you chose it. It seems to me that the freedom we seek is being able to choose and not be tied permanently into any situation (especially a bad one) by choice.
  - conductr 13y ago
    Yes, couldn't agree more. Being in control of how I spend my time is the key to being free. And yes, you're also right in the fact I have accumulated enough cash that I never have to work again, if I don't want to. That brings up another side to this conversation about success, I hate talking about money. It's embarrassing when you're a 30 y/o with $1#M and trying to maintain a modest life (I'm not flashy but I'm no coupon clipper either). For the most part, I surround myself with (upper?)middle-class people with student loans, mortgages, credit card debt, and maybe some young children. So when a friend finds out I am a millionaire (usually another friend tells them, right in front of me), they get this weird look on their face* - and I have no idea how to react. So, I usually just say "yes, it's true" and try to change the conversation. If I could change one thing, I would have kept my success a complete secret. As it occurs, it's exciting and you want to share and celebrate your successes ("drinks on me!"). Unfortunately, the long-term consequence is other people tend to feel this is public information and that sucks. * It's something in their eyes, almost everyone does it and it reminds me of gollum and the way he looks at "his precious." Like, as if by instinct, the first thought in their mind is "how do I get my hands on that money?"
gdonelli 13y ago
For some people having a life is harder than having a job. For some other people having a job is harder than having a life. Not sure who is more lucky between the two groups.
JackFr 13y ago
This really struck the perfect HN balance between arrogance and whining with a sales pitch thrown in. If I were writing an HNbot this post is what I would aspire to.
fleaflicker 13y ago
I like his idea for a co-working space but ultimately it will not bring the fulfillment he needs. Your work is not your life. It's difficult to realize this when you're young and hacking seems like the greatest and most important thing in the world. As you get older, you gain perspective.
slashedzero 13y ago
This has to be the oddest and most ridiculous attempt I've seen to form a social life. The comments above have advised to go after interests, and whatnot. Do that, but also seek out people you already know and start doing real things with them. Push the boundaries, get to know what they really like doing with their time, form a network. Also, "real jobs" are for suckers who aren't passionate enough to follow their interests.
- mcguire 13y ago
  "This has to be the oddest and most ridiculous attempt I've seen to form a social life." It's just an advertisement for microha.us.
L0j1k 13y ago
I'm actually moving away from Oahu to the mainland to take a job that pays a little better than entry level salary, solely because my entire life up until now has been completely lacking in the 9-to-5, and I've been offered a "regular job" in the "regular world" in Austin by one of the coolest dudes I've ever met, to work on an awesome open source project in two of my favorite languages on one of my favorite operating systems. I think my work environment -- and specifically the people I'll be working with -- over the next year is going to help give me perspective that I've been missing in my life for about ten years. I can understand this situation completely. I spend most of my days lounging around my house by myself watching old episodes of Star Trek and hacking on whatever project I feel like that day. Best of luck to you in this endeavor!
xradionut 13y ago
I'm not identifying with this at all. I have strong passions outside the industry. Tasks more meanful than dealing with CRUD, servers and web applications. Hobbies/past-times that given the time and money to pursue would become my new fun "job", contribute more to society and connect with others daily.
question-all 13y ago
MUST WORK 24/7. ALL WORK AND NO PLAY... we all know how the movie ends.

233 points by mkrecny 13y ago

I quit using terms like "real job" and "real world" a long time ago (back when I was working as a deckhand on a ship). I don't like that it implies that you are doing something less- that other people are more legitimate because they are on the beaten path. Now I use the term "regular job" and "regular world". On another note, some people thrive in the solo-work arrangement. My creativity has soared since I quit having senseless meetings, or bureaucratic red tape to get through. Good that you recognized that you don't naturally build social networks- As my business has grown it forced me out to meet so many people that now I have reserved entire days to be back in my private office working alone- hoping I can tap into the creativity that comes from solitude.

mkrecny 13y ago
Beautiful, thank you.
melindajb 13y ago
your handle describes your post perfectly. "regular job, regular world." I shall use that!
jholman 13y ago
Great quote from the book 'Net Magic', by Lee Siegel: “I’m writing a book on magic,” I explain, and I’m asked, “Real magic?” By real magic people mean miracles, thaumaturgical acts, and supernatural powers. “No,” I answer: “Conjuring tricks, not real magic.” Real magic, in other words, refers to the magic that is not real, while the magic that is real, that can actually be done, is not real magic. The parallel is limited, of course, because you can be employed in a "real job" / "regular job". But the point is, when people say "real job" they don't mean that other jobs are not real things, they mean that they don't fully have the property of job-ness. And I'd argue that they're right, and that's exactly why many people don't want to have a "real job". Some people want a job that has only SOME of the properties of job-ness. (some of the properties of "job-ness": pays enough to raise a family, has reasonable security, has the thing they call "benefits", telegraphs information about you to people who want to make a snap judgement about you (including e.g. your extended family), keeps you busy from 8am to 6pm, gives you a defined social role and a defined social context)

phillmv 13y ago

Let me get this straight. Your solution to feeling socially isolated, having no fulfilling hobbies outside of work, and your apparent unhappiness, despite your success, is to open a co-working space? Folks, this is as clear as an indictment of the culture as you get. I work out of a co-working space. They're great. I am slowly working my way up the informal foosball rankings. And I'm not particularly good at living life, but we're still working at the financial stability part. There is more to life than work, even if you were blessed with huge natural reservoirs of motivation. Learn to paint. Learn to cook. Learn another language. Write fiction, investigate some non-fiction, learn how to take beautiful photographs (pro-tip: your iPhone is an amazing camera), READ BOOKS, start playing a team sport in an adult rec league, go camping, if you can afford it GO TRAVELLING, oh my god you have the money and total flex but you won't go travelling?, VOLUNTEER at the homeless shelter, at the library, at the office of a political cause you believe in, INTERACT WITH OTHER HUMAN BEINGS [in a setting outside of "lol tech startups" once in a while].

Bulkington 13y ago
As is often mentioned on HN: in times of great distress/confusion/boredom/pessimism, stop up the intertubes and get some exercise. Fresh fruit and vegetables are good, too. (So are junior-college girls, but I don't need the bad karma.)
mkrecny 13y ago
Thanks for your wisdom Phil.
- phillmv 13y ago
  I'm figuring this stuff out. I'm on the "adult rec league" stage. These shiny textfields and the illusion of pseudonymity, even when you use your real name, make it easy to write and sound really snarky and mean and I'm sorry if I came off that way. I think what I'm trying to say is, you sound unhappy, dude. Trying to up my empathy, in your context maybe you do just need work-mates. I convinced a friend to quit his job for precisely the same reason: after a few months of working out of coffee shops and being alone all the time I was starting to go nutty. It's just the lead-in to your decision sounds so… morose, and we're all capable individuals here who should find ways to not be morose. I don't know, maybe I mis-read your tone.

michaelochurch 13y ago

The social life that comes with a typical office job is a false security. Your boss can take it away at any time. Never get so beholden to one person. You need to start going to Meetups, hanging out with different sorts of people, etc. After you leave, you're lucky if you're in touch with one or two of your former co-workers. If your boss is sour about you leaving, or if he fires you in a piss-fit, he'll actually turn a lot of people against you. It sounds like you're already coming to the right path. Generating a social life without an office context is harder, but it's a valuable skill because almost everyone successful has active out-of-office ties.

philbarr 13y ago
I think this depends purely on the type of people who work at your job. I now work at home and have done for 2 years, but still meet up with colleagues from my previous job occasionally, and they still talk to me and we discuss life/software/beer etc. The company I work for now has meetups 2-3 times a year, and whilst the people are generally nice enough, I wouldn't really consider keeping in touch if I left. I doubt they would bother either. I also have a group of friends from my childhood around and we hang out alot. I consider this extremely important and make specific efforts to organise activities and nights out so we don't lose touch. People really don't put enough effort into friendships to stay in touch. They often treat friends as disposable when it comes to their careers which is sad. Friends > cash, every time.
benatkin 13y ago
I know this feeling, and I know it well. I agree with philbarr that it depends on your job. I think it also depends on your position in the social structure. But it's just another way that a job may seem better at the time than it actually is. I try to be skeptical of the perks of what I do, and put the main things (pay, gaining experience, commute time, comfort, etc) first.

aashaykumar92 13y ago

It's a great post, but I was a bit confused by the purpose of Mircrohaus and ventured on to the website. Unfortunately, I'm still a bit confused. Not confused by what it is, but by what the purpose is? I mean, why would people be attracted to this over other incubators? The application process, although seemingly informal, stil exists so I guess what I'm looking for is a sort-of pitch about Microhaus.

mkrecny 13y ago
"why would people be attracted to this over other incubators" It's focused on developing you -as a person- rather than a product. Microhaus doesn't take equity in whatever you're working on.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  Then what does Microhaus get in return? Basically, how are you planning on keeping this thing afloat?
throwaway1979 13y ago
Myles doesn't need an incubator. This is not about giving away a % of your company for advice/connections/financing/whatever. He (and others like him) just want to work in an environment filled with like-minded individuals.

whichdan 13y ago

I telecommute, and I can definitely relate to most of this post. There's something really refreshing about being able to step out at 1pm, run for an hour, hit a bar for lunch, meander back home, and settle back into coding again. It feels great, but especially in the winter months, the lack of daily social interaction catches up with you really quickly.

FD3SA 13y ago

I cannot praise this enough. The greatest achievements in the world have come from a gathering of bright and passionate people, discussing and vetting their ideas together. As deep thinkers, we tend to seek isolation to focus the entirety of our mental faculty on a particular problem. In this quest to make efficient use of our biological computing device, we forget that we are indeed humans forged through evolutionary processes, and that our very sanity depends on a positively reinforcing social foundation. The most difficult task is finding like minded individuals, who would spontaneously coalesce as if by a force of nature but are held apart due to spatial or temporal separation. Once this initial barrier is overcome, such minds become inseparable and often go on to do great things. History is abound with examples such as Godel and Einstein, whose friendship began in the most extraordinary of circumstances but ended up changing our very understanding of the universe. So good luck, and god speed!

thoughtcriminal 13y ago
The greatest achievements in the world have come from a gathering of bright and passionate people, discussing and vetting their ideas together. Nonsense. Any equal number of "greatest" achievements have come from a individuals working persistently in solitude, in humble settings.
- thirdtruck 13y ago
  Each of which only only mattered to the world at large because many others proceeded to spread and implement those achievements.
  - obviouslygreen 13y ago
    Sure... now we're debating on what proportion of an undefined set conforms to whose preconceptions. This is intelligent. We could avoid all of this if people would just learn to make their points without also having to jump to outrageous and/or totally unsubstantiated conclusions in addition to just stating what would otherwise be a perfectly valid opinion.

ckurdziel 13y ago

There's a huge amount of creativity that comes from solitude - I've often felt that the biggest issue for me with having a "real job" is the fact that I can't carve out enough time to be truly alone with my thoughts. The grass is always greener... :)

psionski 13y ago
I was JUST starting to think "Oh, God... I'm reaching the end of the comments and no one has suggested to read Nietzsche and enjoy your solitude, not a single person!" Thank you, sir, for representing the underrepresented!

goloxc 13y ago

this is pretty sweet

DoubleMalt 13y ago

Can I fork microha.us on github? No seriously, I am currently thinking about renting office space, and this seems to be a great idea so I will think about using it for a microha.us session at the beginning.

yesimahuman 13y ago

Running a company has been one of the most lonely things I've ever done. I think it's one of the hardest parts of running a company. It's no wonder founders try to form social groups amongst themselves. I started a weekly coffee meetup in Madison, WI which has been great for reducing some of that loneliness. We also hired more people which has really helped as well! Best of luck with Microhaus!

xsace 13y ago

For a moment I thought I was reading a description of my life.

jeepey 13y ago
Second that! And a pretty accurate one. Good to know I'm not the only one ;)
micahroberson 13y ago
Same thoughts here! I'm not sure starting my own incubator would fill the void, but I can see how joining something like Microha.us might be nice. Anybody know of anything along the same lines in SF?
citizens 13y ago
Same here. I even live in the neighborhood.
tobeportable 13y ago
+1, get a child and spice it up

Aardwolf 13y ago

Off topic, sorry, but just a question in general about this type of link on HN: Why is the font on that page so big? Isn't it better of everyone consistently uses the same font size for content, rather than some pages using a big font for articles while others use a small font? In the past these "large font" pages did not really exist, it's a recent phenomenon...

estebank 13y ago
In the past, when? In the past, screen resolution was lower on screens roughly the same size as we use now. I find it weird how rarely people (including myself) modify the zoom level of the webpages they visit, unless they have vision problems, or are using a phone/tablet. Erring on the side of caution, too big a font is better than too small a font. The default font size for `p` is 16px, and it can be thought of the ideal size for text[1] on the browser. People will argue for bigger or smaller fonts[2], but I think that I see more people complaining about small fonts than big fonts, and with new higher resolution displays that have inconsistent ways of displaying pages across devices (is 1px a physical pixel? It isn't supposed to be, but most of the time it is, so front end designers assume they are, but the display size doesn't change... everybody uses a 1200x900 screen, right?), just make it readable on small high resolution displays. Having said that, a much bigger problem than small/big fonts is low contrast font color. If people using zoom is uncommon, people using personalised style sheets are unicorns. [1]: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/10/07/16-pixels-body-copy-anything-less-costly-mistake/ http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/10/07/16-pixels-body-co... [2]: http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/211/is-there-an-optimal-font-size http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/211/is-there-an-optima...

hkmurakami 13y ago

Doing things like hosting Wednesday board game nights, weekend hikes, and Sunday brunches have kept me "sane" in this regard. They're all great activities to have conversations.

sghill 13y ago

Great post. Thank you for sharing this. > Surely, I would fill my days with an eclectic mix of hobbies and spontaneous travel, funding the whole thing with the ultimate passive income stream. Was this the original goal for not having a 'real' job? > But for some reason I can't do that. I'm not good at using my free time for hobbies. I typically spend it thinking about work, or prototyping the 'next thing'. This part was most attention-grabbing for me. Did you have many hobbies before you became so deeply involved in tech? I like to think I'd be outside playing golf a few times a week, but that's something I used to do before getting a tech job in a city.

wolfowitz 13y ago

Am I the only one who thinks this is a load whiny written pseudo viral advertising for that guys 'oh so different' co working space? I mean I pretty much resonated with all of this right until the last paragraph, where it suddenly turns into some catchy written ad for Microhaus - an experimental incubator for people who dream bigger than the rest

r0s 13y ago

Coming in from the other direction: I have no problem with the social networking, and I've spent years working part-time or at unconventional jobs just to have free time. I'm good at the lone gun lifestyle, maybe too good. Now with many "interesting" but unprofitable web projects... still trying to get on that gravy train. So I bounce from school to more serious work trying to build real development skills. Hopefully I can bring some product to market, or make something. That's the hard part for me.

virtualwhys 13y ago

Haven't had a real job in 10 years, luckily. Instead of going to the gym, I grab my board and surf for an hour or 2, waves/wind permitting. Travel and code, not too shabby. Make far less $$ than I would in a 9-5 (+ commute/traffic) office setting, but quality of life is much better. I feel like absolute garbage without getting out in nature, dropping the screens for awhile. YMMV of course, some people are at home in the hustle and bustle of the big shi$$y -- can only handle that for a few weeks max before I get restless for the unknown.

oftenwrong 13y ago
What kind of work do you do?
- virtualwhys 13y ago
  Freelance web dev, JVM/Scala.
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    How do you find Enterprisey clients that let you work remotely? Is it also word of mouth like most regular enterprise work or do you make yourself heard in some specific communities?
    - virtualwhys 13y ago
      "How do you find Enterprisey clients that let you work remotely?" Good question ;-) All word of mouth -- projects run $25K on the high end. I own a couple of application servers that I run in colo stateside, and choose the stack for the client accordingly; tends to be Scala/Slick/Play of late, smitten with Scala. Side note: I did run into a fellow surfer/coder in Hawaii a couple of winters ago doing the travel/work thing. He made around $200K/year doing C#/SQL Server work for a big Atlanta based company. As long as he made the weekly conference call (4AM Hawaii time) they had no problem with him telecommuting -- France is nice like that, got a 6 hour delay before start of business day EST ;-)

chasing 13y ago

So you're working from home and it's making you feel crappy because you're not socializing, you're working bizarre hours, and you're not capable of picking up non-work-related hobbies? Why jump into immediately advertising your co-working space? Feels like a weird bait-and-switch. Why not stick out the work-from-home thing for a bit and actually see if you can solve some of these problems? Because, yes, if you can then you'll have a nicely flexible life. Hell, start with working only during normal business hours. Do things with buddies in the evenings. Join a sports league. Then see how you feel. Right now, this reads a bit like: "I tried using chopsticks instead of a fork for the first time, and after poking myself in the eye a dozen times, I decided chopsticks aren't for me and that I should instead open a fork factory." Also: I work from home. I am an independent developer. It's a "real job." Can we please put to rest this stupid idea that freelancing isn't "real?" It's very real.

mansigandhi 13y ago
I completely agree. This felt like such a bait-and-switch post. And as someone who works from home - I have as much a social life as earlier (in a "real" job).

seivan 13y ago

Since I started making my own product and freelancing, I've increased my OSS contribution by a lot. I got eleven eleven days streaking on Github and the contribution graph looks heavy since I quit - and I have a hard time giving it up. The last two months, I've done four different libraries for iOS that are used by other people as well as bugfixes, new features and readme updates for other libraries that I use. All of this, because I can pick what hours I do client work and I don't spend two hours a day traveling to & from an office. Job security is fake. Especially pre-profit places.

ChuckMcM 13y ago

I'm going to be a bit contrarian here it seems and say "good for you!" There are a number of quasi-social-business get organizations which exist for the exact same reasons you outlined in your post. That old chestnut the Chamber of Commerce has been a social get together for small business owners forever where they could get together and share issues and influence the politicians to make a more business friendly environment. What you have started, could potentially evolve into the technology equivalent of such organizations. Getting together with other entrepreneurs to talk about shared issues and ideas, challenges and various technologies, etc. All while working at your own independent businesses but largely in a similar 'space' (the Internet). There is tremendous efficiency to be gained there, an leverage in making changes.

sixdimensional 13y ago
I have been thinking lately that the Chamber of Commerce in most cities should be evolving into what you are describing. They could provide co-working space, events, support, advisors, etc - they could be these mini-incubators and bring new businesses into their respective areas. In my dreams I see many small "silicon valleys" (or better put, centers for innovation and incubation) all over the US. I know the ones around where I live certainly don't do this enough, although they do try to help connect businesses in the community, and they do have some free presentations that are nice.

ziko 13y ago

Best HN post since I've joined. I was in a very similar situation not so long ago. I know a few others as well. Last month, I watched a lot of snooker as there was a World Championship in Sheffield. Ronnie O'Sullivan [who later won the cup] said something on that same matter. You have a fairly successful life. You have someone who is very close to you. You are good at something. Yet you lack one very important ingredient to achieve total happiness. I don't know what is the word for that ingredient. Basically, you need to wake up in the morning, (briefly) commute and work from there. Working from home is a great thing but not for everyone. You need an office. You need something away from your flat to work at. You need that commute even if it's just staring at the nature and greeting the doorman or mailman. That's how it works for us (people who have this same problem). I applaud microha.us. It's a great idea and it crossed my mind to do something similar in the UK.

orangethirty 13y ago

What sort of paperwork do participants have to sign in order to join this "incubator"?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Gepsens 13y ago

Isn't the fundamental problem that you spent 24/7 coding rather than "not having a real job" ?

3pt14159 13y ago

mkrecny, forget about the haters, I think it's cool. At the end of the day we're just communicating on HN with abstractions based on less than a minute of thinking. A month with six cool people sounds like a blast.

arcosdev 13y ago

I need to get out of this industry

conductr 13y ago

I can relate to your feelings of solitude. I had similar difficulties coping with self-employment when my business was basically on autopilot. The fact is, just because I was able to quit my job everyone else still works M-F and finding ways to stay stimulated becomes a challenge. My solution was to just get another job. I work a corporate job now, which is weird because I too had grand thoughts of the Tim Ferris lifestyle. It is nice to know that I do this job as a way to pass the time and remain intellectually challenged. I've already turned down a few promotions because I just don't want the responsibly. Also, if things change or my boss is a prick I have no problems just walking out and never looking back. He knows this and it has turned out to be a great manager/employee relationship because of it.

sixdimensional 13y ago
Genuine question - was your business (on "autopilot") successful enough to live off of, permanently? It seems to me if you're "free" from the need to work (i.e. paying the bills), you then get to choose what to do with yourself. It sounds like you chose to keep working a "job". Which is cool - you chose it. It seems to me that the freedom we seek is being able to choose and not be tied permanently into any situation (especially a bad one) by choice.
- conductr 13y ago
  Yes, couldn't agree more. Being in control of how I spend my time is the key to being free. And yes, you're also right in the fact I have accumulated enough cash that I never have to work again, if I don't want to. That brings up another side to this conversation about success, I hate talking about money. It's embarrassing when you're a 30 y/o with $1#M and trying to maintain a modest life (I'm not flashy but I'm no coupon clipper either). For the most part, I surround myself with (upper?)middle-class people with student loans, mortgages, credit card debt, and maybe some young children. So when a friend finds out I am a millionaire (usually another friend tells them, right in front of me), they get this weird look on their face* - and I have no idea how to react. So, I usually just say "yes, it's true" and try to change the conversation. If I could change one thing, I would have kept my success a complete secret. As it occurs, it's exciting and you want to share and celebrate your successes ("drinks on me!"). Unfortunately, the long-term consequence is other people tend to feel this is public information and that sucks. * It's something in their eyes, almost everyone does it and it reminds me of gollum and the way he looks at "his precious." Like, as if by instinct, the first thought in their mind is "how do I get my hands on that money?"

gdonelli 13y ago

For some people having a life is harder than having a job. For some other people having a job is harder than having a life. Not sure who is more lucky between the two groups.

JackFr 13y ago

This really struck the perfect HN balance between arrogance and whining with a sales pitch thrown in. If I were writing an HNbot this post is what I would aspire to.

fleaflicker 13y ago

I like his idea for a co-working space but ultimately it will not bring the fulfillment he needs. Your work is not your life. It's difficult to realize this when you're young and hacking seems like the greatest and most important thing in the world. As you get older, you gain perspective.

slashedzero 13y ago

This has to be the oddest and most ridiculous attempt I've seen to form a social life. The comments above have advised to go after interests, and whatnot. Do that, but also seek out people you already know and start doing real things with them. Push the boundaries, get to know what they really like doing with their time, form a network. Also, "real jobs" are for suckers who aren't passionate enough to follow their interests.

mcguire 13y ago
"This has to be the oddest and most ridiculous attempt I've seen to form a social life." It's just an advertisement for microha.us.

L0j1k 13y ago

I'm actually moving away from Oahu to the mainland to take a job that pays a little better than entry level salary, solely because my entire life up until now has been completely lacking in the 9-to-5, and I've been offered a "regular job" in the "regular world" in Austin by one of the coolest dudes I've ever met, to work on an awesome open source project in two of my favorite languages on one of my favorite operating systems. I think my work environment -- and specifically the people I'll be working with -- over the next year is going to help give me perspective that I've been missing in my life for about ten years. I can understand this situation completely. I spend most of my days lounging around my house by myself watching old episodes of Star Trek and hacking on whatever project I feel like that day. Best of luck to you in this endeavor!

xradionut 13y ago

I'm not identifying with this at all. I have strong passions outside the industry. Tasks more meanful than dealing with CRUD, servers and web applications. Hobbies/past-times that given the time and money to pursue would become my new fun "job", contribute more to society and connect with others daily.

question-all 13y ago

MUST WORK 24/7. ALL WORK AND NO PLAY... we all know how the movie ends.