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This whole "Many people have it worse off, so technologists should accept being a conquered, plundered people" attitude just reeks of mediocrity. I can't stand

This whole "Many people have it worse off, so technologists should accept being a conquered, plundered people" attitude just reeks of mediocrity. I can't stand it. It makes me physically ill. A couple things. First, you have to consistently come out in the top 10-20% of the project allocation heap to have a career in this industry. You realize that almost no one can have top-10% luck over a period of 20 years, right? If you don't get the absolute best projects available, you become a second-class citizen around 28 because you're competing against people who were politically fortunate enough to get real work. Have fun with that. Unless you die early, you will turn 40, and unless you rape the project-allocation game into ribbons, you won't have high-enough quality work experience to survive what this industry considers "advanced" age. You'll be a 40-year-old with the typical dogshit work experience (that only makes you a bitter loser; you don't learn anything from it) that most people get, competing against 25-year-olds who haven't learned yet that the game is rigged against them. Second, at least in New York or the Bay Area, no programmer gets to raise kids. We are, as a people, being sterilized by the cocksuckers who control this shitpile of an industry. To make raise-a-family money, you have to become more like one of those parasitic VP/NTWTFK's that I talked about who get huge paychecks just for using the bathroom. If you do actual work, you'll never make enough money to, for example, own a house in the Bay Area. It's the VP/NTWTFK's who are driving up those prices, not legitimate people. Unless you're extremely fortunate (1-in-1000) and work for a startup that IPO's, you'll see things exactly as I do in a matter of a few years. Big fucking deal, you get to spend $10 a day on coffee. Yeah, you're fucking Marie Antoinette. Congratulations on your awesome life. Did the oppressed people of Paris in the 1780s say, "You know, they have it worse in Somalia", and therefore decide that their ruling classes were wonderful human beings? No. They took responsibility for making their lives better, and they went out and fucking did something.

bearmf 13y ago
> Second, at least in New York or the Bay Area, no programmer gets to raise kids. Now you are getting carried away :).
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  No, that's actually how it works. First of all, if you have kids older than about 3, no more renting. You can't put your kids through a move just because your landlord decided to raise prices 20%. If you move 5 times in their first 15 years, their likelihoods of having psychotic mental illness in adolescence and adulthood go way up. Extreme commuting is no longer an option either. If you commute 3 hours per day in addition to a 9+ hour job, you're going to be miserable and irritable and your kids are going to see you at your worst and end up fucked-up. Then they'll end up needing the validation of VC-istan narcissism too... the cycle repeats. Then, housework. If you have two people working career jobs, and you have kids, you're way beyond being able to do your own cleaning. If you don't have kids, you don't need to hire maids because having a tidy place is optional and most people just do without; but that shit no longer flies when you have helpless creatures you must keep alive. If you're both working career jobs, you need the resources to hire for all that shit to keep the place clean. Finally, tuition and health insurance. Mostly, it's goddamn fucking housing, though. Seriously, all this NIMBY shit that keeps house prices high is one of the most twisted dysgenic programs ever devised. It creates a world in which future-oriented smart people realize how fucked-up everything is and refuse to bring more people into the world, while the present-focused dumbasses (and the rich psychopaths making money off this horrible arrangement) breed like rabbits. Compassionate people who actually observe the state of the world objectively (and realize that it's borderline torture to force some being that hasn't yet been afflicted with existence to be born into this ruined world) are being selected against.
  - bearmf 13y ago
    Well, I know several software engineers with kids in NYC. Some live in NJ, some live in Brooklyn, some live in Manhattan. In fact, among married immigrants almost everyone has at least one kid after 30. Often mother does not work or works part time and looks for kids. Almost everyone of the "extreme commuters" has kids. Tuition and health insurance is about the same everywhere. Housework is not that hard, maids are not that expensive. Absolute cleanliness is not something that kids require, neither is owning a (2-bed, 3-bed, huge) house. In my opinion, your restrictions are quite arbitrary. So you would not have kids while working as a software engineer, but plenty of people do.
tptacek 13y ago
The comment you're replying to was implying that the median job in software development tends to be significantly better than most other available jobs. Software developers are alone among professionals in the control they have over their own schedules. They're in far more stable demand than lawyers are. They work vastly better hours than doctors. And, obviously, software developers don't come home every day barely able to move from the physical toll of their job. It seems like what you did with your comment was to reframe his comment, without his consent, so that instead of the median it referred to some platonic ideal you have regarding the role software developers should have in the market. What do you think line of business devs at Global 2000 companies do all day? Hew nuggets of C#/ADO code out of solid rock in a dank tunnel with only the lamp affixed to their helmet to see it with? No, they lead exactly the life the parent commenter said they do. For that matter, how many 40 year old developers do you know? The last 8 years of my career have been a tour of every conceivable kind of software developer, and I've met lots and lots of 40 year olds, and 50 year olds, and (gasp) older. I do not know a lot of 40 year old developers who think of their lot as "dogshit". Your ageism assessment isn't even valid in startupland! Look at the stats on tech entrepreneurship. The only place 40 year olds are disfavored is on message boards, and (if we want to stipulate any part of your argument) on the small subset of startups that are important primarily to message board nerds. No (P)rofession has an easier time raising children than software developers. Corp lawyers have 50%+ travel burdens and work 60-70 hour weeks. High-paid accountants work for firms that similarly keep them on the road half the year. Doctors? Heh. I raised 2 kids while starting two startups and working for a third and saw my kids all the time. And that's startupland. Most developers do - not - work - for - startups. Line of business software developers at State Farm do not work 70 hour weeks. edited for brevity
- glurgh 13y ago
  Dude! I was just browsing and upvoted this for the talk of onion-parody-level sense of entitlement and the all-caps reminder the OP is not, in fact, Gavroche. Edited for butchery!

bearmf 13y ago

> Second, at least in New York or the Bay Area, no programmer gets to raise kids. Now you are getting carried away :).

michaelochurch 13y ago
No, that's actually how it works. First of all, if you have kids older than about 3, no more renting. You can't put your kids through a move just because your landlord decided to raise prices 20%. If you move 5 times in their first 15 years, their likelihoods of having psychotic mental illness in adolescence and adulthood go way up. Extreme commuting is no longer an option either. If you commute 3 hours per day in addition to a 9+ hour job, you're going to be miserable and irritable and your kids are going to see you at your worst and end up fucked-up. Then they'll end up needing the validation of VC-istan narcissism too... the cycle repeats. Then, housework. If you have two people working career jobs, and you have kids, you're way beyond being able to do your own cleaning. If you don't have kids, you don't need to hire maids because having a tidy place is optional and most people just do without; but that shit no longer flies when you have helpless creatures you must keep alive. If you're both working career jobs, you need the resources to hire for all that shit to keep the place clean. Finally, tuition and health insurance. Mostly, it's goddamn fucking housing, though. Seriously, all this NIMBY shit that keeps house prices high is one of the most twisted dysgenic programs ever devised. It creates a world in which future-oriented smart people realize how fucked-up everything is and refuse to bring more people into the world, while the present-focused dumbasses (and the rich psychopaths making money off this horrible arrangement) breed like rabbits. Compassionate people who actually observe the state of the world objectively (and realize that it's borderline torture to force some being that hasn't yet been afflicted with existence to be born into this ruined world) are being selected against.
- bearmf 13y ago
  Well, I know several software engineers with kids in NYC. Some live in NJ, some live in Brooklyn, some live in Manhattan. In fact, among married immigrants almost everyone has at least one kid after 30. Often mother does not work or works part time and looks for kids. Almost everyone of the "extreme commuters" has kids. Tuition and health insurance is about the same everywhere. Housework is not that hard, maids are not that expensive. Absolute cleanliness is not something that kids require, neither is owning a (2-bed, 3-bed, huge) house. In my opinion, your restrictions are quite arbitrary. So you would not have kids while working as a software engineer, but plenty of people do.

tptacek 13y ago

The comment you're replying to was implying that the median job in software development tends to be significantly better than most other available jobs. Software developers are alone among professionals in the control they have over their own schedules. They're in far more stable demand than lawyers are. They work vastly better hours than doctors. And, obviously, software developers don't come home every day barely able to move from the physical toll of their job. It seems like what you did with your comment was to reframe his comment, without his consent, so that instead of the median it referred to some platonic ideal you have regarding the role software developers should have in the market. What do you think line of business devs at Global 2000 companies do all day? Hew nuggets of C#/ADO code out of solid rock in a dank tunnel with only the lamp affixed to their helmet to see it with? No, they lead exactly the life the parent commenter said they do. For that matter, how many 40 year old developers do you know? The last 8 years of my career have been a tour of every conceivable kind of software developer, and I've met lots and lots of 40 year olds, and 50 year olds, and (gasp) older. I do not know a lot of 40 year old developers who think of their lot as "dogshit". Your ageism assessment isn't even valid in startupland! Look at the stats on tech entrepreneurship. The only place 40 year olds are disfavored is on message boards, and (if we want to stipulate any part of your argument) on the small subset of startups that are important primarily to message board nerds. No (P)rofession has an easier time raising children than software developers. Corp lawyers have 50%+ travel burdens and work 60-70 hour weeks. High-paid accountants work for firms that similarly keep them on the road half the year. Doctors? Heh. I raised 2 kids while starting two startups and working for a third and saw my kids all the time. And that's startupland. Most developers do - not - work - for - startups. Line of business software developers at State Farm do not work 70 hour weeks. edited for brevity

glurgh 13y ago
Dude! I was just browsing and upvoted this for the talk of onion-parody-level sense of entitlement and the all-caps reminder the OP is not, in fact, Gavroche. Edited for butchery!