5 ms·

What We Mean When We Say 'Race Is a Social Construct'

12 points by giorgiofontana 13y ago

JoeAltmaier 13y ago
What a bunch of semantic sophistry. Argue that something isn't completely well-define is not the same as refuting it. I'm no racist, but I'm as sure race exists as I am the sun and the moon. In America we play games with it and pretend its not really something. But just live in a monoculture like, say, the rest of the planet and you'll come to understand race intimately.
- JPKab 13y ago
  Genetically, a Somalian man, a German man and a Japanese woman have more in common than two sub-Saharan Africans who live 100 miles apart. But in the U.S., the Somalian is 'black.' This is what the article is pointing out. When Americans use the term 'black' or 'white', they are using big bucket terms to label cultural and ethnic groups that share physical similarities. The problem is that using skin color as the basis for this is absurd, and prevents us from solving the "Race problem." Why? Because America doesn't have a "Race problem." America has a culture problem. Some of the sub-cultures in America are doing terrible, but when we try to solve the problem in a blanket way by helping a "race" we end up blaming the wrong things and solving the wrong problems. Nigerian-American immigrants do phenomenally well, and their second generations rank at levels matching or exceeding Asian American immigrant families. Culturally they are completely separate from descendants of slaves stolen from Africa in the 17th century. But because they are lumped together as "black", we try to solve the issue at that obtuse level.
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    That! For years I've believed we conflate 'race' with culture.
- snowwrestler 13y ago
  He's not refuting the existence of race, he's exposing the flaws in trying to treat it like a scientific fact that can be reliably observed. Race exists like assholes or douchebags exist. Most people can agree that they exist, but there is no reliable, rigorous, objective way to make hard determinations about whether a given person is that. That makes it very sketchy to try to find scientifically valid correlations with other attributes like intelligence (which we all know is itself impossible to pin down.)
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Nonsense. There are DNA tests that can track race like a fingerprint. This foggy PC attitude about race is not doing anybody any service. Stop apologizing for race; recognize it, celebrate it, then Move On! People are individuals, treat them that way and live a happy life.
    - Torgo 13y ago
      There are tests that track genetic markers that are associated with the Anglo-European interpretation of race. If such tests were available when the Irish were considered separate from whites, the test would be able to detect the distinctly irish "race."
      - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
        Differences in DNA mean differences in biology. Resistance to bugs. Ability to jump. 3D spatial reasoning. And on and on. If its useful to distinguish genes and cluster population by a characteristic, then a race 'exists'. Recently somebody posted here a detailed chart of North American dialect. It included tiny subdivisions like a corridor of midwestern-speak they use from Des Moines to Kansas City. Was that chart 'wrong' because you can't hear the difference?
        Torgo 13y ago
        The marker is scientific and important, the arbitrary cluster is socially determined. If you've got the gene defect for tay-sachs are you jewish? or do jews usually have it? What if you're black but you have that gene because of one ancestor? Being a Jew doesn't make you magically susceptible to this genetic disorder and being recognizably black does not make you immune from the disorder if you have the gene.

What a bunch of semantic sophistry. Argue that something isn't completely well-define is not the same as refuting it. I'm no racist, but I'm as sure race exists as I am the sun and the moon. In America we play games with it and pretend its not really something. But just live in a monoculture like, say, the rest of the planet and you'll come to understand race intimately.

JPKab 13y ago
Genetically, a Somalian man, a German man and a Japanese woman have more in common than two sub-Saharan Africans who live 100 miles apart. But in the U.S., the Somalian is 'black.' This is what the article is pointing out. When Americans use the term 'black' or 'white', they are using big bucket terms to label cultural and ethnic groups that share physical similarities. The problem is that using skin color as the basis for this is absurd, and prevents us from solving the "Race problem." Why? Because America doesn't have a "Race problem." America has a culture problem. Some of the sub-cultures in America are doing terrible, but when we try to solve the problem in a blanket way by helping a "race" we end up blaming the wrong things and solving the wrong problems. Nigerian-American immigrants do phenomenally well, and their second generations rank at levels matching or exceeding Asian American immigrant families. Culturally they are completely separate from descendants of slaves stolen from Africa in the 17th century. But because they are lumped together as "black", we try to solve the issue at that obtuse level.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  That! For years I've believed we conflate 'race' with culture.
snowwrestler 13y ago
He's not refuting the existence of race, he's exposing the flaws in trying to treat it like a scientific fact that can be reliably observed. Race exists like assholes or douchebags exist. Most people can agree that they exist, but there is no reliable, rigorous, objective way to make hard determinations about whether a given person is that. That makes it very sketchy to try to find scientifically valid correlations with other attributes like intelligence (which we all know is itself impossible to pin down.)
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Nonsense. There are DNA tests that can track race like a fingerprint. This foggy PC attitude about race is not doing anybody any service. Stop apologizing for race; recognize it, celebrate it, then Move On! People are individuals, treat them that way and live a happy life.
  - Torgo 13y ago
    There are tests that track genetic markers that are associated with the Anglo-European interpretation of race. If such tests were available when the Irish were considered separate from whites, the test would be able to detect the distinctly irish "race."
    - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
      Differences in DNA mean differences in biology. Resistance to bugs. Ability to jump. 3D spatial reasoning. And on and on. If its useful to distinguish genes and cluster population by a characteristic, then a race 'exists'. Recently somebody posted here a detailed chart of North American dialect. It included tiny subdivisions like a corridor of midwestern-speak they use from Des Moines to Kansas City. Was that chart 'wrong' because you can't hear the difference?
      - Torgo 13y ago
        The marker is scientific and important, the arbitrary cluster is socially determined. If you've got the gene defect for tay-sachs are you jewish? or do jews usually have it? What if you're black but you have that gene because of one ancestor? Being a Jew doesn't make you magically susceptible to this genetic disorder and being recognizably black does not make you immune from the disorder if you have the gene.