2 ms·

Software snobbery. "Cost and developer time are non-factors" Bro, do you even startup?

by iguana 13y ago

pestaa 13y ago
Don't quote and cut half of his sentence off. You tried to change the meaning substantially. His point was that learning PHP properly with all the shenanigans takes at least as much as time as learning a well thought out environment.
- iguana 13y ago
  His definition of properly is nothing but an ever moving goal post of software snobbery.
  - astrodust 13y ago
    "Unit tests? SQL escaping? What are you? A snob?" It's not snobbery. It's called doing your job like a professional. This is harder in PHP than it is in other languages. The only language more cantankerous and difficult than PHP is C. Learning PHP properly is hard. There are hundreds of little things you will have to be very careful about because they are easy to get wrong and the cost of failure can be enormous. If you can't see this, you're basically a PHP snob. You're holding your pet language to a different standard than others.
    - vidarh 13y ago
      What you miss is that I can source a dozen qualified PHP candidates in ten minutes just by searching my inbox for e-mails from recruiters I haven't yet deleted, that already know these things, and that charges substantially less than equivalently skilled candidates in a lot of the languages we both might agree are more elegant, if I'd even find those candidates - contrary to PHP, I don't have recruiters beating down my door to place candidates that are skilled in Ruby, and when I've helped friends find candidates for Ruby work, it's always far harder, and they end up paying a lot. I detest PHP from a language writers standpoint. Programming language design is a hobby of mine, and I am a real snob about programming languages from a personal preference point of view, and PHP certainly does not measure up. But I don't let my pet ideas about what a programming language should be like stop me from doing my job, which is to ensure we have an environment and team where we can get projects in on time and on budget with a staff that is both skilled enough and cost effective enough to keep us profitable. Is it possible to do this with Ruby? Sure. But the dynamics are very different, and the potential customers tend to be quite different. I've written web services in a number of languages, including C and C++, and been responsible for systems in a mix of PHP and Perl that handled ~$50 million worth of card payments and invoicing, and I've developed Ruby based systems and hybrid PHP - Ruby - C++ stacks. When I can justify picking Ruby, I do, because I love the language. But I refuse to pick Ruby just because I personally like it and it has a higher coolness factor in the face of economics where it doesn't make sense, such as when there's installed bases or teams that are already skilled at PHP. It'd be irresponsible.
    - iguana 13y ago
      Where are you getting the notion that unit tests and parameterized SQL are difficult or not commonly used in PHP? You don't have to use those things, but they are there if you want them, just like they are in other languages. Neither Python nor Ruby enforce unit test or parameterized SQL requirements. I don't like the language itself, but I do like the myriad benefits it brings. The only pet language I hold to a different standard is Perl.

Software snobbery. "Cost and developer time are non-factors" Bro, do you even startup?

by iguana 13y ago

Software snobbery. "Cost and developer time are non-factors" Bro, do you even startup?

Don't quote and cut half of his sentence off. You tried to change the meaning substantially. His point was that learning PHP properly with all the shenanigans takes at least as much as time as learning a well thought out environment.

iguana 13y ago
His definition of properly is nothing but an ever moving goal post of software snobbery.
- astrodust 13y ago
  "Unit tests? SQL escaping? What are you? A snob?" It's not snobbery. It's called doing your job like a professional. This is harder in PHP than it is in other languages. The only language more cantankerous and difficult than PHP is C. Learning PHP properly is hard. There are hundreds of little things you will have to be very careful about because they are easy to get wrong and the cost of failure can be enormous. If you can't see this, you're basically a PHP snob. You're holding your pet language to a different standard than others.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    What you miss is that I can source a dozen qualified PHP candidates in ten minutes just by searching my inbox for e-mails from recruiters I haven't yet deleted, that already know these things, and that charges substantially less than equivalently skilled candidates in a lot of the languages we both might agree are more elegant, if I'd even find those candidates - contrary to PHP, I don't have recruiters beating down my door to place candidates that are skilled in Ruby, and when I've helped friends find candidates for Ruby work, it's always far harder, and they end up paying a lot. I detest PHP from a language writers standpoint. Programming language design is a hobby of mine, and I am a real snob about programming languages from a personal preference point of view, and PHP certainly does not measure up. But I don't let my pet ideas about what a programming language should be like stop me from doing my job, which is to ensure we have an environment and team where we can get projects in on time and on budget with a staff that is both skilled enough and cost effective enough to keep us profitable. Is it possible to do this with Ruby? Sure. But the dynamics are very different, and the potential customers tend to be quite different. I've written web services in a number of languages, including C and C++, and been responsible for systems in a mix of PHP and Perl that handled ~$50 million worth of card payments and invoicing, and I've developed Ruby based systems and hybrid PHP - Ruby - C++ stacks. When I can justify picking Ruby, I do, because I love the language. But I refuse to pick Ruby just because I personally like it and it has a higher coolness factor in the face of economics where it doesn't make sense, such as when there's installed bases or teams that are already skilled at PHP. It'd be irresponsible.
  - iguana 13y ago
    Where are you getting the notion that unit tests and parameterized SQL are difficult or not commonly used in PHP? You don't have to use those things, but they are there if you want them, just like they are in other languages. Neither Python nor Ruby enforce unit test or parameterized SQL requirements. I don't like the language itself, but I do like the myriad benefits it brings. The only pet language I hold to a different standard is Perl.