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PHP??? I would have thought javascript or Ruby would have made more sense.It seems like Google is just reacting to requests from 4 years ago. The App Engine ha

PHP??? I would have thought javascript or Ruby would have made more sense.It seems like Google is just reacting to requests from 4 years ago. The App Engine has mades some decisions that seem to be contradictory. At one end, they drastically increased their prices and sent a signal the GAE was an enterprise-focused platform. Now, they're releasing PHP so people can host blogs on it. Really? You want to compete with $5-6/month wordpress hosting solutions. Who is running the show there?

bradleyjg 13y ago
It was the single most requested feature on the bug tracker by quite a bit. It's not something I want, but apparently there are quite a few people who do.
- salimmadjd 13y ago
  Is this cumulative requests from the past 5 years? Also what people request and what google's vision is are two different things. Who are they targeting with this PHP stuff. Yes sure, for free-tier stuff, I'm sure lots of kids playing around with PHP would love to have a sand-box to play around. But this move seems inconsistent with their prior action that signaled a move toward enterprise sales. Also, it feels like one side of google is not talking with the other side. They're building a whole application scripting system hosted on google Drive to work with google apps, etc. Why not provide the javascript on GAE to allow further application development and integration. To be honest, this feels like: Oh shit! Google I/O is coming up and we need to have something to show than a vision of providing cloud-based computing solution that fits within their big vision.
  - cramsdale 13y ago
    Google Drive / apps script integration is a great idea. Unifying our storage offerings across the entire company is a great idea too (but an aside for this conversation). I disagree with the "get something out" mentality, though. Shipping a fully managed runtime that scales as well as Java, Python, and Go, that is hardened, and is secure enough that we'll run it next to Gmail, Search, Geo, etc. is no easy task. It's not something you decide to do on a whim a few weeks before i/o.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > Also what people request and what google's vision is are two different things. Google's vision is "developers deploying scalable apps on App Engine". Being developer-friendly is good for that. > Who are they targeting with this PHP stuff. Existing PHP devs. Which is a lot of devs. > Yes sure, for free-tier stuff, I'm sure lots of kids playing around with PHP would love to have a sand-box to play around. Lots of apps that end up making money use PHP. > But this move seems inconsistent with their prior action that signaled a move toward enterprise sales. Enterprise is an area that Google would like to get their Cloud Platform, including App Engine, more sales in, but its never been anywhere close to their sole target for it. > They're building a whole application scripting system hosted on google Drive to work with google apps, etc. "Building"? Apps Script has been around a long time (longer than Drive itself; maybe longer than App Engine.) > Why not provide the javascript on GAE to allow further application development and integration. Javascript on GAE would make a lot of sense, too (especially in light of App Script and Google's work on V8 and the emerging popularity of Node.) So would Dart-on-GAE. I wouldn't be surprised if either (or both) of those happened. But the fact that it makes sense doesn't make PHP make any less sense. > To be honest, this feels like: Oh shit! Google I/O is coming up and we need to have something to show App Engine PHP wasn't even the big Cloud Platform announcement tied to I/O; general availability of the Compute Engine IaaS (and the associated new pricing and instance types for Clound Engine) was the big Cloud Platform news. > than a vision of providing cloud-based computing solution that fits within their big vision. Google's big vision for cloud-based computing is, well, big. It includes more than one kind of solution, for more than one market segment.
  - gambler 13y ago
    "Lots of kids playing around with PHP" "People who want to play around with "hello worlds" with PHP" Your attitude is ridiculously arrogant. PHP powers most non-corporate website on the web. The wast majority of wikis, blogs and forums. You know, things that are used for actual communication and knowledge sharing by millions of people.
- cramsdale 13y ago
  Our goal is to advance computing (via services such as HRD, Cloud Datastore, BigQuery, and Go) in ways that align with existing developer practices (investments in Java and now the release of PHP). There's no point in releasing amazing solutions if there is a huge barrier to entry.
  - salimmadjd 13y ago
    Which customers are you going after? People who want to play around with "hello worlds" with PHP or people who actually build powerful stuff. Either case, help me understand why PHP was a better choice vs. Javascript? If the question is barrier to entry. Then javascript should have the lowest. Anyone doing any web development needs to do something in HTML/Javascript/CSS. Additionally you could have made the case for further integration with your other services like App Scripts. Aren't google team talk to each other? I personally would have rather seen Google focus on Go and remove "experimental" out of Go so people feel some amount of security developing and investing time building Go applications on GAE. Just my $.02!
    - bradleyjg 13y ago
      You can host HTML, javascript and CSS files to be run in the browser on GAE already, and have been able to do so since day 1. What you can't do is run javascript server side. Given the unique requirements of server side javascript, and the fact that the single dominant implementation is maintained by a competitor in this exact space, it isn't a great fit.
      - salimmadjd 13y ago
        Serverside. Not static client side files.
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        > Given the unique requirements of server side javascript, and the fact that the single dominant implementation is maintained by a competitor in this exact space, it isn't a great fit. Google already has a cloud based, server-side, javascript platform in Apps Script, and has purchased at least one company that operated a JavaScript PaaS, so its not like doing JavaScript serverside is out of Google's reach if they strategically wanted to do it. I can see why, given the mass of PHP apps out there, PHP might be a priority for App Engine given what App Engine already supports, but I can't see JavaScript as having a significant barrier to practicality.
- duaneb 13y ago
  I just wouldn't have guessed the people who requested PHP would use much resources—if you're scaling, you probably know better than to use PHP in the first place.
jrochkind1 13y ago
You can do JS and Ruby via a JVM-based runtime (jruby, or whatever for JS). Don't know how much uptake it has. I know I've seen proof of concepts of jruby on app engine, including with Rails.
- salimmadjd 13y ago
  I know you can but it's not clean. Also with Groovy on Grails early on there was some issues with timeouts if you're applicant wasn't popular, that was until GAE allowed to run a hot instance. Probably why it didn't have an uptake. Also, anyone who is doing javascript is probably avoiding java and doesn't want to figure out how to put the right files together to deploy such an application.
eli 13y ago
I would guess at least an order of magnitude more Enterprise web applications currently in use are written in PHP than Javascript and Ruby combined.

bradleyjg 13y ago

It was the single most requested feature on the bug tracker by quite a bit. It's not something I want, but apparently there are quite a few people who do.

salimmadjd 13y ago
Is this cumulative requests from the past 5 years? Also what people request and what google's vision is are two different things. Who are they targeting with this PHP stuff. Yes sure, for free-tier stuff, I'm sure lots of kids playing around with PHP would love to have a sand-box to play around. But this move seems inconsistent with their prior action that signaled a move toward enterprise sales. Also, it feels like one side of google is not talking with the other side. They're building a whole application scripting system hosted on google Drive to work with google apps, etc. Why not provide the javascript on GAE to allow further application development and integration. To be honest, this feels like: Oh shit! Google I/O is coming up and we need to have something to show than a vision of providing cloud-based computing solution that fits within their big vision.
- cramsdale 13y ago
  Google Drive / apps script integration is a great idea. Unifying our storage offerings across the entire company is a great idea too (but an aside for this conversation). I disagree with the "get something out" mentality, though. Shipping a fully managed runtime that scales as well as Java, Python, and Go, that is hardened, and is secure enough that we'll run it next to Gmail, Search, Geo, etc. is no easy task. It's not something you decide to do on a whim a few weeks before i/o.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Also what people request and what google's vision is are two different things. Google's vision is "developers deploying scalable apps on App Engine". Being developer-friendly is good for that. > Who are they targeting with this PHP stuff. Existing PHP devs. Which is a lot of devs. > Yes sure, for free-tier stuff, I'm sure lots of kids playing around with PHP would love to have a sand-box to play around. Lots of apps that end up making money use PHP. > But this move seems inconsistent with their prior action that signaled a move toward enterprise sales. Enterprise is an area that Google would like to get their Cloud Platform, including App Engine, more sales in, but its never been anywhere close to their sole target for it. > They're building a whole application scripting system hosted on google Drive to work with google apps, etc. "Building"? Apps Script has been around a long time (longer than Drive itself; maybe longer than App Engine.) > Why not provide the javascript on GAE to allow further application development and integration. Javascript on GAE would make a lot of sense, too (especially in light of App Script and Google's work on V8 and the emerging popularity of Node.) So would Dart-on-GAE. I wouldn't be surprised if either (or both) of those happened. But the fact that it makes sense doesn't make PHP make any less sense. > To be honest, this feels like: Oh shit! Google I/O is coming up and we need to have something to show App Engine PHP wasn't even the big Cloud Platform announcement tied to I/O; general availability of the Compute Engine IaaS (and the associated new pricing and instance types for Clound Engine) was the big Cloud Platform news. > than a vision of providing cloud-based computing solution that fits within their big vision. Google's big vision for cloud-based computing is, well, big. It includes more than one kind of solution, for more than one market segment.
- gambler 13y ago
  "Lots of kids playing around with PHP" "People who want to play around with "hello worlds" with PHP" Your attitude is ridiculously arrogant. PHP powers most non-corporate website on the web. The wast majority of wikis, blogs and forums. You know, things that are used for actual communication and knowledge sharing by millions of people.
cramsdale 13y ago
Our goal is to advance computing (via services such as HRD, Cloud Datastore, BigQuery, and Go) in ways that align with existing developer practices (investments in Java and now the release of PHP). There's no point in releasing amazing solutions if there is a huge barrier to entry.
- salimmadjd 13y ago
  Which customers are you going after? People who want to play around with "hello worlds" with PHP or people who actually build powerful stuff. Either case, help me understand why PHP was a better choice vs. Javascript? If the question is barrier to entry. Then javascript should have the lowest. Anyone doing any web development needs to do something in HTML/Javascript/CSS. Additionally you could have made the case for further integration with your other services like App Scripts. Aren't google team talk to each other? I personally would have rather seen Google focus on Go and remove "experimental" out of Go so people feel some amount of security developing and investing time building Go applications on GAE. Just my $.02!
  - bradleyjg 13y ago
    You can host HTML, javascript and CSS files to be run in the browser on GAE already, and have been able to do so since day 1. What you can't do is run javascript server side. Given the unique requirements of server side javascript, and the fact that the single dominant implementation is maintained by a competitor in this exact space, it isn't a great fit.
    - salimmadjd 13y ago
      Serverside. Not static client side files.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > Given the unique requirements of server side javascript, and the fact that the single dominant implementation is maintained by a competitor in this exact space, it isn't a great fit. Google already has a cloud based, server-side, javascript platform in Apps Script, and has purchased at least one company that operated a JavaScript PaaS, so its not like doing JavaScript serverside is out of Google's reach if they strategically wanted to do it. I can see why, given the mass of PHP apps out there, PHP might be a priority for App Engine given what App Engine already supports, but I can't see JavaScript as having a significant barrier to practicality.
duaneb 13y ago
I just wouldn't have guessed the people who requested PHP would use much resources—if you're scaling, you probably know better than to use PHP in the first place.

jrochkind1 13y ago

You can do JS and Ruby via a JVM-based runtime (jruby, or whatever for JS). Don't know how much uptake it has. I know I've seen proof of concepts of jruby on app engine, including with Rails.

salimmadjd 13y ago
I know you can but it's not clean. Also with Groovy on Grails early on there was some issues with timeouts if you're applicant wasn't popular, that was until GAE allowed to run a hot instance. Probably why it didn't have an uptake. Also, anyone who is doing javascript is probably avoiding java and doesn't want to figure out how to put the right files together to deploy such an application.

eli 13y ago

I would guess at least an order of magnitude more Enterprise web applications currently in use are written in PHP than Javascript and Ruby combined.