5 ms·

The programming is the hard part. 10% is ridiculous.

by DavidSJ 18y ago

LukeG 18y ago
The hard part and the fun part. Fortunately, we've been building online recruiting software for almost a year and half, so we've got just a little bit of a foundation to work from. What number do you think is fair?
- tptacek 18y ago
  You may get 3 interns just from this post (we provide no information at all about what we pay our interns, only that it's a paid position, and we have no trouble filling slots). But you might get better interns if you address the risk of not being able to pay living expenses in SV.
- banned_man 18y ago
  I have an idea for a novel that is truly earth-shattering. It might be described as "fucking brilliant". I'm very busy and therefore don't have time to write it myself, and I obviously can't discuss the concept here; I have to safeguard this earth-shattering idea so it isn't stolen. But if you've scored at least 700 on your verbal SAT-- formal score reports, please-- and can pass a 4-hour writing test I will administer on-site in New York, you can ghost-write my novel. You'll be expected to fill out at least 900 pages, because my idea is just too epic to implemented in fewer. You'll have 2 months to complete the task, revisions and editing included, and you'll be expected to live in New York during that period, with full responsibility for accommodations being yours. If you're successful and on time, I'll offer you a full 12.5 percent of the proceeds between publication and April 20, 2011. Your name will not appear on the novel, though mine will. However, I'll forward your name to a couple of literary agents and, without getting specific, tell them that I know you to "generally do very good work". How does this deal sound to you?
  - LukeG 18y ago
    It sounds like a labored metaphor that's way off base. We're not secretive; our software is already built, live and proven; we'll absolutely tell everyone who will listen about the folks who work with us; it's an internship, man.
    - banned_man 18y ago
      I'm obviously joking, but those kinds of "offers" have been given (and presumably accepted) in the writing world. A common scenario is an offer (usually given by scummy, second-rate magazines) where the writer is required to use a pseudonym and forbidden by contract to disclose her relationship to that name. They don't want the writer to develop a reputation and suddenly demand a salary. For a more serious analysis, here goes: a person who works for deferred or no salary is a founder and should be paid with some equity (a percentage of the whole company, not just a small percentage of what he produces) in the venture. Understandably, you don't want to give equity to interns. So you probably shouldn't have interns until you can pay wages. In general, if you develop a platform and someone develops an app on it, the application writer gets more than a 50% share of the proceeds. I believe iPhone and Kindle developers get 70%.
      - LukeG 18y ago
        Looking at it as a platform is interesting - we could end up paying more, and are in no way adverse to discussing it. We could also use the help and think it's a pretty sweet opportunity for the right folks, and I don't see the "shouldn't have interns" as a or the only logical answer here.
tptacek 18y ago
It's an internship position. Plenty of CS people take internships that pay minimum wage, or nothing at all. So far as I can tell, even Spolsky's interns get a flat stipend. Royalties are uncommon even for fulltimers and contractors. I wouldn't do it, but it's not a BS offer.
- LukeG 18y ago
  'appreciate that. We think it'll be a sweet experience for the right folks.
  - jpcx01 18y ago
    I think you've set yourself up so that anyone who would be willing to take your offer shouldn't be trusted.
    - LukeG 18y ago
      why?
      - jpcx01 18y ago
        Because its a shitty deal. A good developer wouldn't take it.
        tptacek 18y ago
        Plenty of smart people will take unpaid internships because they really like the company and because the position fits their lifestyle in between school years. You just implied they were subpar developers. The two lowest-paid positions I've taken (obviously not counting the zero-salary founder role) were the two most lucrative --- in straight up dollar terms --- in my career to date.
- neilc 18y ago
  Plenty of CS people take internships that pay minimum wage, or nothing at all. Perhaps, but "amazing hackers" with "great references" who are taking CS "likely at a very good school" aren't going to be considering internships that pay minimum wage, or anything close. Even in this economy, I'd expect that good students should be looking at something in the ballpark of $5k/month.

The programming is the hard part. 10% is ridiculous.

by DavidSJ 18y ago

The programming is the hard part. 10% is ridiculous.

LukeG 18y ago

The hard part and the fun part. Fortunately, we've been building online recruiting software for almost a year and half, so we've got just a little bit of a foundation to work from. What number do you think is fair?

tptacek 18y ago
You may get 3 interns just from this post (we provide no information at all about what we pay our interns, only that it's a paid position, and we have no trouble filling slots). But you might get better interns if you address the risk of not being able to pay living expenses in SV.
banned_man 18y ago
I have an idea for a novel that is truly earth-shattering. It might be described as "fucking brilliant". I'm very busy and therefore don't have time to write it myself, and I obviously can't discuss the concept here; I have to safeguard this earth-shattering idea so it isn't stolen. But if you've scored at least 700 on your verbal SAT-- formal score reports, please-- and can pass a 4-hour writing test I will administer on-site in New York, you can ghost-write my novel. You'll be expected to fill out at least 900 pages, because my idea is just too epic to implemented in fewer. You'll have 2 months to complete the task, revisions and editing included, and you'll be expected to live in New York during that period, with full responsibility for accommodations being yours. If you're successful and on time, I'll offer you a full 12.5 percent of the proceeds between publication and April 20, 2011. Your name will not appear on the novel, though mine will. However, I'll forward your name to a couple of literary agents and, without getting specific, tell them that I know you to "generally do very good work". How does this deal sound to you?
- LukeG 18y ago
  It sounds like a labored metaphor that's way off base. We're not secretive; our software is already built, live and proven; we'll absolutely tell everyone who will listen about the folks who work with us; it's an internship, man.
  - banned_man 18y ago
    I'm obviously joking, but those kinds of "offers" have been given (and presumably accepted) in the writing world. A common scenario is an offer (usually given by scummy, second-rate magazines) where the writer is required to use a pseudonym and forbidden by contract to disclose her relationship to that name. They don't want the writer to develop a reputation and suddenly demand a salary. For a more serious analysis, here goes: a person who works for deferred or no salary is a founder and should be paid with some equity (a percentage of the whole company, not just a small percentage of what he produces) in the venture. Understandably, you don't want to give equity to interns. So you probably shouldn't have interns until you can pay wages. In general, if you develop a platform and someone develops an app on it, the application writer gets more than a 50% share of the proceeds. I believe iPhone and Kindle developers get 70%.
    - LukeG 18y ago
      Looking at it as a platform is interesting - we could end up paying more, and are in no way adverse to discussing it. We could also use the help and think it's a pretty sweet opportunity for the right folks, and I don't see the "shouldn't have interns" as a or the only logical answer here.

tptacek 18y ago

It's an internship position. Plenty of CS people take internships that pay minimum wage, or nothing at all. So far as I can tell, even Spolsky's interns get a flat stipend. Royalties are uncommon even for fulltimers and contractors. I wouldn't do it, but it's not a BS offer.

LukeG 18y ago
'appreciate that. We think it'll be a sweet experience for the right folks.
- jpcx01 18y ago
  I think you've set yourself up so that anyone who would be willing to take your offer shouldn't be trusted.
  - LukeG 18y ago
    why?
    - jpcx01 18y ago
      Because its a shitty deal. A good developer wouldn't take it.
      - tptacek 18y ago
        Plenty of smart people will take unpaid internships because they really like the company and because the position fits their lifestyle in between school years. You just implied they were subpar developers. The two lowest-paid positions I've taken (obviously not counting the zero-salary founder role) were the two most lucrative --- in straight up dollar terms --- in my career to date.
neilc 18y ago
Plenty of CS people take internships that pay minimum wage, or nothing at all. Perhaps, but "amazing hackers" with "great references" who are taking CS "likely at a very good school" aren't going to be considering internships that pay minimum wage, or anything close. Even in this economy, I'd expect that good students should be looking at something in the ballpark of $5k/month.