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You lost me at "Pay them to Code, not Think" That is THE worse advice EVER. You want a developer that can take your pseudo spec (and I say pseudo because if t

You lost me at "Pay them to Code, not Think" That is THE worse advice EVER. You want a developer that can take your pseudo spec (and I say pseudo because if they are detailed enough, then you should be able to code them, since you are hiring a developer you don't know the devil that will be hidden in the details), interact with you, and give you what you asked OR BETTER. Non-technical people need the counterweight. This advice is like telling the doctor "I don't pay you to think and figure out what I have, just to write the prescriptions, and is much cheaper"

trevmckendrick 13y ago
But sometimes you don't need a doctor to give you a diagnosis. You literally only need a prescription. Hiring a developer on the cheap to "just code" is the equivalent. It's a way to keep costs down while testing the market.
- jorgeleo 13y ago
  Even over the counter pills have the warning: If the simtoms persist for more than 7 days consult your doctor
- BigBalli 13y ago
  the problem is that often the doctor knows what to prescribe better than you... :)
- jlarocco 13y ago
  > But sometimes you don't need a doctor to give you a diagnosis. You literally only need a prescription. I don't think any legit doctors write prescriptions without first making, or verifying, a diagnosis. Hiring a developer and telling him, "Don't think, just code," seems like a recipe for disaster. People who insist on going about it that way get the software they deserve.
  - nmcfarl 13y ago
    I think there’s a continuum here. I’m sure we’ve all been stuck (or heard of the project) with some guy who thinks he’s an architect (but has been hired as a coder) and can sit at his desk for weeks produce lots of docs, but 0 lines of code. Sometimes that’s good for the project - and sometimes it sinks it. Sometimes we’re paid to think, and sometimes we’re paid to code. Deciding which activity is more economically viable to the company should probably not be left up to us. That’s what they hire managers for after all...
nthj 13y ago
> You want a developer that can take your pseudo spec (and I say pseudo because if they are detailed enough, then you should be able to code them, since you are hiring a developer you don't know the devil that will be hidden in the details), interact with you, and give you what you asked OR BETTER. I think you missed his point. Yes, in an ideal world every developer would be able to think for you. In the real world, developers who can do this charge a huge premium. His point was that if you don't want the full consulting package, you can get by with a less expensive developer—so long as you map out every step of the way for them.
- trevmckendrick 13y ago
  "If you don't want the full consulting package, you can get by with a less expensive developer—so long as you map out every step of the way for them." Perfectly summarized. Thanks.
- jorgeleo 13y ago
  But I didn't say "think for you", I said "interact with you", as in take ownership of a good technical implementation, as in understand your problem and help you to imagine better. ... At the end of the day, you get what you pay for.
  - ErrantX 13y ago
    Often enough, there is simply no need to have someone "imagine it better", because paying someone to get your spec done is enough. As the technical ability of the customer goes down, the input, and therefore the cost, of the developer goes up. Of course, this falls apart when you get non-technical people hiring grunt coders... But there is nothing bad about such programmers - they just fullfill a different market sector. And their code is likely just as good. What you pay the premium for is someone to manage the technical side rather than just do as their told.
    - jorgeleo 13y ago
      "And their code is likely just as good" That is nice dream, but the big fallacy.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
tholmes 13y ago
I think you missed the part where he was talking about the "Good Enough" developers.
- jorgeleo 13y ago
  To determine ""Good Enough" developers" is NP-Complete
wisty 13y ago
If you read the next line, he's saying that low-rate developers need a lot of detailed instructions. He says that's because they are second-rate. Just as likely, they don't have the margins to play guessing games (if you are on $1000 for a CRUD website, you can afford a bit of rework; if it's $200 you need to be able to get it done without any change in design).

trevmckendrick 13y ago

But sometimes you don't need a doctor to give you a diagnosis. You literally only need a prescription. Hiring a developer on the cheap to "just code" is the equivalent. It's a way to keep costs down while testing the market.

jorgeleo 13y ago
Even over the counter pills have the warning: If the simtoms persist for more than 7 days consult your doctor
BigBalli 13y ago
the problem is that often the doctor knows what to prescribe better than you... :)
jlarocco 13y ago
> But sometimes you don't need a doctor to give you a diagnosis. You literally only need a prescription. I don't think any legit doctors write prescriptions without first making, or verifying, a diagnosis. Hiring a developer and telling him, "Don't think, just code," seems like a recipe for disaster. People who insist on going about it that way get the software they deserve.
- nmcfarl 13y ago
  I think there’s a continuum here. I’m sure we’ve all been stuck (or heard of the project) with some guy who thinks he’s an architect (but has been hired as a coder) and can sit at his desk for weeks produce lots of docs, but 0 lines of code. Sometimes that’s good for the project - and sometimes it sinks it. Sometimes we’re paid to think, and sometimes we’re paid to code. Deciding which activity is more economically viable to the company should probably not be left up to us. That’s what they hire managers for after all...

nthj 13y ago

> You want a developer that can take your pseudo spec (and I say pseudo because if they are detailed enough, then you should be able to code them, since you are hiring a developer you don't know the devil that will be hidden in the details), interact with you, and give you what you asked OR BETTER. I think you missed his point. Yes, in an ideal world every developer would be able to think for you. In the real world, developers who can do this charge a huge premium. His point was that if you don't want the full consulting package, you can get by with a less expensive developer—so long as you map out every step of the way for them.

trevmckendrick 13y ago
"If you don't want the full consulting package, you can get by with a less expensive developer—so long as you map out every step of the way for them." Perfectly summarized. Thanks.
jorgeleo 13y ago
But I didn't say "think for you", I said "interact with you", as in take ownership of a good technical implementation, as in understand your problem and help you to imagine better. ... At the end of the day, you get what you pay for.
- ErrantX 13y ago
  Often enough, there is simply no need to have someone "imagine it better", because paying someone to get your spec done is enough. As the technical ability of the customer goes down, the input, and therefore the cost, of the developer goes up. Of course, this falls apart when you get non-technical people hiring grunt coders... But there is nothing bad about such programmers - they just fullfill a different market sector. And their code is likely just as good. What you pay the premium for is someone to manage the technical side rather than just do as their told.
  - jorgeleo 13y ago
    "And their code is likely just as good" That is nice dream, but the big fallacy.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

tholmes 13y ago

I think you missed the part where he was talking about the "Good Enough" developers.

jorgeleo 13y ago
To determine ""Good Enough" developers" is NP-Complete

wisty 13y ago

If you read the next line, he's saying that low-rate developers need a lot of detailed instructions. He says that's because they are second-rate. Just as likely, they don't have the margins to play guessing games (if you are on $1000 for a CRUD website, you can afford a bit of rework; if it's $200 you need to be able to get it done without any change in design).