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Bull. Startups can't pay more because there's no investment capital. Established and successful companies that pay well still can't get people. The shortage is

Bull. Startups can't pay more because there's no investment capital. Established and successful companies that pay well still can't get people. The shortage is real.

rmoriz 13y ago
Nope. Even companies with a large sum of VC, let's say >5m€ don't pay fair salaries. Siemens, Allianz, younameit pay way more + have a lot of benfits, less stress more (real) job security and a development perspective (career path). Same for freelancers. Sometimes I see very large teams of mediocre developers. Why didn't they hire 2-3 (more expensive) experts instead of 10 juniors? Maybe because they doing this because of an aqui-hire exits or some ridiculous "hire 10 people" todo that their VC dictate.
- seivan 13y ago
  I see that too.
- ccdan 13y ago
  >>Why didn't they hire 2-3 (more expensive) experts instead of 10 juniors? << For the same reason they don't hire 2-3 architects instead of one architect and 10 workers to build a small house. Actually hiring solely "experts" the productivity may be lower because they're used to doing only certain kinds of things.
  - rmoriz 13y ago
    Experts are developers, too. They code faster/have a better focus. An architect usually can't build a house.
    - ccdan 13y ago
      Yeah, but there are large software systems with a lot of boring, repetitive stuff that is being done.
      - rmoriz 13y ago
        In startups? Then they're doing it wrong. Even in enterprise-size businesses they're doing it wrong. If manual repetition of a task occurs it has to be automated or refactored if it costs significant developer time (=money): http://xkcd.com/1205/ http://xkcd.com/1205/
        ccdan 13y ago
        Repetitions are often a result of changing requirements things that can't (normally) be automated. If you think that enterprises are doing it wrong and you know more than them, you could become rich by showing them the right way of doing things - on one condition: you have to prove what you're claiming. :)
        rmoriz 13y ago
        It's a myth that large companies have a lot of repitition tasks. They know how to automate. No need to tell them what they already do. As my postings are focussed on the German market, I rarely see real Lean Startups that. It's still very common to build one thing big and to hope that it succeeds. So actually you don't start from scratch more than 1 time except some low profile developers messed it up.
seivan 13y ago
Yeah, what do you call the $50m Soundcloud got? Not only are the salaries junk, but your fucked up taxes take it all. Might as well go to Hong Kong or Singapore.
michaelochurch 13y ago
The shortage is of trust. Talented people are scared that all but elite firms will fuck up their careers and therefore are only interested in a few companies at any given time. (Interesting enough, those companies are often places like Google that, except for the validation that getting hired by one indicates, aren't great for career progress.) Firms end up having to buy talent at a panic price (acq-hiring, which usually involves purchase of mediocre talent) because they've lost faith in their own people or, at least, the middle-management filter that has occluded any visibility for talent at the bottom. There is no shortage of talent or capital. Both are abundant in comparison to the actual limiting factor, which is trust.
BSousa 13y ago
Big financial firms with various millions in the bank in London requesting senior iOS developers also pay crap. 50-70k a year seems to be the going rate (I chatted with various, as well as recruiters). If we go with 70k its 4.000 net a month. If you want a decent 2 bedroom flat (not even mentioning an actual house) in the greater London area it will cost you easily 2000-2500. If you factor council tax + bills + transportation + etc, not much remains. Now I know most people live outside London to save money, but you can't complain there is a shortage of talent if the senior guys aren't earning a wage that allows them to live in the same city they work in.

Bull. Startups can't pay more because there's no investment capital. Established and successful companies that pay well still can't get people. The shortage is real.

rmoriz 13y ago

Nope. Even companies with a large sum of VC, let's say >5m€ don't pay fair salaries. Siemens, Allianz, younameit pay way more + have a lot of benfits, less stress more (real) job security and a development perspective (career path). Same for freelancers. Sometimes I see very large teams of mediocre developers. Why didn't they hire 2-3 (more expensive) experts instead of 10 juniors? Maybe because they doing this because of an aqui-hire exits or some ridiculous "hire 10 people" todo that their VC dictate.

seivan 13y ago
I see that too.
ccdan 13y ago
>>Why didn't they hire 2-3 (more expensive) experts instead of 10 juniors? << For the same reason they don't hire 2-3 architects instead of one architect and 10 workers to build a small house. Actually hiring solely "experts" the productivity may be lower because they're used to doing only certain kinds of things.
- rmoriz 13y ago
  Experts are developers, too. They code faster/have a better focus. An architect usually can't build a house.
  - ccdan 13y ago
    Yeah, but there are large software systems with a lot of boring, repetitive stuff that is being done.
    - rmoriz 13y ago
      In startups? Then they're doing it wrong. Even in enterprise-size businesses they're doing it wrong. If manual repetition of a task occurs it has to be automated or refactored if it costs significant developer time (=money): http://xkcd.com/1205/ http://xkcd.com/1205/
      - ccdan 13y ago
        Repetitions are often a result of changing requirements things that can't (normally) be automated. If you think that enterprises are doing it wrong and you know more than them, you could become rich by showing them the right way of doing things - on one condition: you have to prove what you're claiming. :)
        rmoriz 13y ago
        It's a myth that large companies have a lot of repitition tasks. They know how to automate. No need to tell them what they already do. As my postings are focussed on the German market, I rarely see real Lean Startups that. It's still very common to build one thing big and to hope that it succeeds. So actually you don't start from scratch more than 1 time except some low profile developers messed it up.

seivan 13y ago

Yeah, what do you call the $50m Soundcloud got? Not only are the salaries junk, but your fucked up taxes take it all. Might as well go to Hong Kong or Singapore.

michaelochurch 13y ago

The shortage is of trust. Talented people are scared that all but elite firms will fuck up their careers and therefore are only interested in a few companies at any given time. (Interesting enough, those companies are often places like Google that, except for the validation that getting hired by one indicates, aren't great for career progress.) Firms end up having to buy talent at a panic price (acq-hiring, which usually involves purchase of mediocre talent) because they've lost faith in their own people or, at least, the middle-management filter that has occluded any visibility for talent at the bottom. There is no shortage of talent or capital. Both are abundant in comparison to the actual limiting factor, which is trust.

BSousa 13y ago

Big financial firms with various millions in the bank in London requesting senior iOS developers also pay crap. 50-70k a year seems to be the going rate (I chatted with various, as well as recruiters). If we go with 70k its 4.000 net a month. If you want a decent 2 bedroom flat (not even mentioning an actual house) in the greater London area it will cost you easily 2000-2500. If you factor council tax + bills + transportation + etc, not much remains. Now I know most people live outside London to save money, but you can't complain there is a shortage of talent if the senior guys aren't earning a wage that allows them to live in the same city they work in.