4 ms·

Developer shortage is a lie (in Germany). If there would be a real shortage, the amount companies pay to contractors and salaried employees would rise. Instead

by rmoriz 13y ago

Developer shortage is a lie (in Germany). If there would be a real shortage, the amount companies pay to contractors and salaried employees would rise. Instead it's decreasing! e.g. some companies in Berlin are trying to find developers that work for below 50€/hr (you have to pay ~600€/month for mandatory health insurance, 600€+ for a room, 100€ for public transporn, 100€ mobile phone, retirement provision / buffer for bad times — and ~35-40% taxes before that). Usually there is no participation in the company (stock options) because there are no going public-exits. It's mainly a bubble to attract cheap developers from other parts of Europe, female developers and junior developers willing and eager to get work even if payment is bad. This is great but it's still a lie to tell everyone that there is a shortage. If you pay low, it's hard to find people. Simple as that.

onemorepassword 13y ago
Bull. Startups can't pay more because there's no investment capital. Established and successful companies that pay well still can't get people. The shortage is real.
- rmoriz 13y ago
  Nope. Even companies with a large sum of VC, let's say >5m€ don't pay fair salaries. Siemens, Allianz, younameit pay way more + have a lot of benfits, less stress more (real) job security and a development perspective (career path). Same for freelancers. Sometimes I see very large teams of mediocre developers. Why didn't they hire 2-3 (more expensive) experts instead of 10 juniors? Maybe because they doing this because of an aqui-hire exits or some ridiculous "hire 10 people" todo that their VC dictate.
  - seivan 13y ago
    I see that too.
  - ccdan 13y ago
    >>Why didn't they hire 2-3 (more expensive) experts instead of 10 juniors? << For the same reason they don't hire 2-3 architects instead of one architect and 10 workers to build a small house. Actually hiring solely "experts" the productivity may be lower because they're used to doing only certain kinds of things.
    - rmoriz 13y ago
      Experts are developers, too. They code faster/have a better focus. An architect usually can't build a house.
      - ccdan 13y ago
        Yeah, but there are large software systems with a lot of boring, repetitive stuff that is being done.
        rmoriz 13y ago
        In startups? Then they're doing it wrong. Even in enterprise-size businesses they're doing it wrong. If manual repetition of a task occurs it has to be automated or refactored if it costs significant developer time (=money): http://xkcd.com/1205/ http://xkcd.com/1205/
        ccdan 13y ago
        Repetitions are often a result of changing requirements things that can't (normally) be automated. If you think that enterprises are doing it wrong and you know more than them, you could become rich by showing them the right way of doing things - on one condition: you have to prove what you're claiming. :)
        rmoriz 13y ago
        It's a myth that large companies have a lot of repitition tasks. They know how to automate. No need to tell them what they already do. As my postings are focussed on the German market, I rarely see real Lean Startups that. It's still very common to build one thing big and to hope that it succeeds. So actually you don't start from scratch more than 1 time except some low profile developers messed it up.
- seivan 13y ago
  Yeah, what do you call the $50m Soundcloud got? Not only are the salaries junk, but your fucked up taxes take it all. Might as well go to Hong Kong or Singapore.
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  The shortage is of trust. Talented people are scared that all but elite firms will fuck up their careers and therefore are only interested in a few companies at any given time. (Interesting enough, those companies are often places like Google that, except for the validation that getting hired by one indicates, aren't great for career progress.) Firms end up having to buy talent at a panic price (acq-hiring, which usually involves purchase of mediocre talent) because they've lost faith in their own people or, at least, the middle-management filter that has occluded any visibility for talent at the bottom. There is no shortage of talent or capital. Both are abundant in comparison to the actual limiting factor, which is trust.
- BSousa 13y ago
  Big financial firms with various millions in the bank in London requesting senior iOS developers also pay crap. 50-70k a year seems to be the going rate (I chatted with various, as well as recruiters). If we go with 70k its 4.000 net a month. If you want a decent 2 bedroom flat (not even mentioning an actual house) in the greater London area it will cost you easily 2000-2500. If you factor council tax + bills + transportation + etc, not much remains. Now I know most people live outside London to save money, but you can't complain there is a shortage of talent if the senior guys aren't earning a wage that allows them to live in the same city they work in.
jabbernotty 13y ago
> you have to pay ~600€/month for mandatory health insurance This seems surprisingly high, I'm more used to a base cost of +-110€ (in the Netherlands).
- wjnc 13y ago
  You forget the employers share of health insurance cost (7,75%!)
fpp 13y ago
You're right but: (1) There is a shortage of top-grade developers / other top-grade IT people - there are only that few and there is a very strong global demand for them - those established in this group can almost always choose from multiple offers at a time with salaries in the region of 200k+ or even much more (if they also have proper business skills). Start-ups can't attract those via a salary base - those guys normally do start-ups themselves. Better to go for some mentoring / consultancy sessions with these guys and by that create incentives / improvements with your in-house developers. The rule one of them is as good as up to 20 mediocre developers generally applies. (2) There is a shortage of 25-28 year old senior developers with 10+ years of uninterrupted work experience, having all plus the most exotic skills (each at least 5 years), being in a job with another company and willing to stop there tomorrow and work for 50K or less p.a. gross (that's about 2'300 per month net see cost of living above) - at least double the salary and suddenly people might become interested in job offerings - ask yourself if that marketing guy who's that great in selling himself is really worth 400k p.a. or 200k would also do and you might actually be able to deliver a product after paying your developers an appropriate salary. (3) There is no shortage in mediocre / average developers with high frustration levels and often outdated skills. Some of them might have been outstanding developers before, but got so frustrated by the silly low monies paid to them in an industry juggling with dozens of billions at a time. Treat those fair and spend some time and you might re-surface their outstanding skills. It's a gamble and might also backfire. (4) There is no shortage of lobbyists / politicians / industry guys that trumpet around that there is a shortage in developers - we know at least for the EU and the U.S. this is to lower the wages of developers by bringing in developers from low income countries that are completely dependent on having their visas renewed all the time. Overall with developers you most of the time get what you pay for and how you treat them.

by rmoriz 13y ago

onemorepassword 13y ago

Bull. Startups can't pay more because there's no investment capital. Established and successful companies that pay well still can't get people. The shortage is real.

rmoriz 13y ago
Nope. Even companies with a large sum of VC, let's say >5m€ don't pay fair salaries. Siemens, Allianz, younameit pay way more + have a lot of benfits, less stress more (real) job security and a development perspective (career path). Same for freelancers. Sometimes I see very large teams of mediocre developers. Why didn't they hire 2-3 (more expensive) experts instead of 10 juniors? Maybe because they doing this because of an aqui-hire exits or some ridiculous "hire 10 people" todo that their VC dictate.
- seivan 13y ago
  I see that too.
- ccdan 13y ago
  >>Why didn't they hire 2-3 (more expensive) experts instead of 10 juniors? << For the same reason they don't hire 2-3 architects instead of one architect and 10 workers to build a small house. Actually hiring solely "experts" the productivity may be lower because they're used to doing only certain kinds of things.
  - rmoriz 13y ago
    Experts are developers, too. They code faster/have a better focus. An architect usually can't build a house.
    - ccdan 13y ago
      Yeah, but there are large software systems with a lot of boring, repetitive stuff that is being done.
      - rmoriz 13y ago
        In startups? Then they're doing it wrong. Even in enterprise-size businesses they're doing it wrong. If manual repetition of a task occurs it has to be automated or refactored if it costs significant developer time (=money): http://xkcd.com/1205/ http://xkcd.com/1205/
        ccdan 13y ago
        Repetitions are often a result of changing requirements things that can't (normally) be automated. If you think that enterprises are doing it wrong and you know more than them, you could become rich by showing them the right way of doing things - on one condition: you have to prove what you're claiming. :)
        rmoriz 13y ago
        It's a myth that large companies have a lot of repitition tasks. They know how to automate. No need to tell them what they already do. As my postings are focussed on the German market, I rarely see real Lean Startups that. It's still very common to build one thing big and to hope that it succeeds. So actually you don't start from scratch more than 1 time except some low profile developers messed it up.
seivan 13y ago
Yeah, what do you call the $50m Soundcloud got? Not only are the salaries junk, but your fucked up taxes take it all. Might as well go to Hong Kong or Singapore.
michaelochurch 13y ago
The shortage is of trust. Talented people are scared that all but elite firms will fuck up their careers and therefore are only interested in a few companies at any given time. (Interesting enough, those companies are often places like Google that, except for the validation that getting hired by one indicates, aren't great for career progress.) Firms end up having to buy talent at a panic price (acq-hiring, which usually involves purchase of mediocre talent) because they've lost faith in their own people or, at least, the middle-management filter that has occluded any visibility for talent at the bottom. There is no shortage of talent or capital. Both are abundant in comparison to the actual limiting factor, which is trust.
BSousa 13y ago
Big financial firms with various millions in the bank in London requesting senior iOS developers also pay crap. 50-70k a year seems to be the going rate (I chatted with various, as well as recruiters). If we go with 70k its 4.000 net a month. If you want a decent 2 bedroom flat (not even mentioning an actual house) in the greater London area it will cost you easily 2000-2500. If you factor council tax + bills + transportation + etc, not much remains. Now I know most people live outside London to save money, but you can't complain there is a shortage of talent if the senior guys aren't earning a wage that allows them to live in the same city they work in.

jabbernotty 13y ago

> you have to pay ~600€/month for mandatory health insurance This seems surprisingly high, I'm more used to a base cost of +-110€ (in the Netherlands).

wjnc 13y ago
You forget the employers share of health insurance cost (7,75%!)

fpp 13y ago

You're right but: (1) There is a shortage of top-grade developers / other top-grade IT people - there are only that few and there is a very strong global demand for them - those established in this group can almost always choose from multiple offers at a time with salaries in the region of 200k+ or even much more (if they also have proper business skills). Start-ups can't attract those via a salary base - those guys normally do start-ups themselves. Better to go for some mentoring / consultancy sessions with these guys and by that create incentives / improvements with your in-house developers. The rule one of them is as good as up to 20 mediocre developers generally applies. (2) There is a shortage of 25-28 year old senior developers with 10+ years of uninterrupted work experience, having all plus the most exotic skills (each at least 5 years), being in a job with another company and willing to stop there tomorrow and work for 50K or less p.a. gross (that's about 2'300 per month net see cost of living above) - at least double the salary and suddenly people might become interested in job offerings - ask yourself if that marketing guy who's that great in selling himself is really worth 400k p.a. or 200k would also do and you might actually be able to deliver a product after paying your developers an appropriate salary. (3) There is no shortage in mediocre / average developers with high frustration levels and often outdated skills. Some of them might have been outstanding developers before, but got so frustrated by the silly low monies paid to them in an industry juggling with dozens of billions at a time. Treat those fair and spend some time and you might re-surface their outstanding skills. It's a gamble and might also backfire. (4) There is no shortage of lobbyists / politicians / industry guys that trumpet around that there is a shortage in developers - we know at least for the EU and the U.S. this is to lower the wages of developers by bringing in developers from low income countries that are completely dependent on having their visas renewed all the time. Overall with developers you most of the time get what you pay for and how you treat them.