4 ms·

This last couple of weeks I've been contacting some companies (start ups and established ones). It seems London is really up there with a talent shortage, but e

by BSousa 13y ago

This last couple of weeks I've been contacting some companies (start ups and established ones). It seems London is really up there with a talent shortage, but except for one or two established companies, none of them pay any decent money for senior developers to actually live in London. I live in freaking Portugal with low wages and high taxes. Taking most of the offers that were presented would mean losing a lot of purchasing power at the end of the month. How can you expect to bring people to one of the most expensive places in the world, and try to pay them just a bit above average the UK salary? So as in the US, there is only a shortage because employers don't want to pay what the market is expecting. (note about the article, the fact companies are paying individuals off the books, actually means the companies are actually saving between 20 to 50% (depending on jurisdiction) over the gross salary, again, more related to money than 'visa' issues)

jandrewrogers 13y ago
I do not buy the argument that employers simply do not want to pay. That might be true in Europe but not in the US. If that was true then it would not be the case that everyone is having difficulty finding employees; many companies pay very well and are still in that position. Here are average US regional tech wages in 2012 according to the TechAmerica Foundation: California: $123,900 Massachusetts: $116,000 Washington: $110,200 And I know at many companies the average is more like $150,000 and still have a very difficult time hiring software engineers. I doubt most of the public will be sympathetic to claims that the only reason these positions go unfilled is that companies are unwilling to pay an appropriate wage.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  And again: these are all places with such a vastly over-inflated cost of living that six figure salaries are what you have to pay to put people into a middle-class lifestyle. My guess? Expensive real-estate all over the world just makes it harder and harder to pay for anything, especially employees you have to relocate. And severe socioeconomic and infrastructural inequality makes it a lot tougher to get out of the "center and periphery" problem.
- Glyptodon 13y ago
  Your stats are a farce. I've never met a programmer/software developer in my life who makes more than 100k if they aren't essentially management. Median US salary for a software developer is $69,564. The 90% percentile is 100k. Please come back to planet Earth. Likewise, in places where wages are higher it appears to be mostly about cost of living. The last time I calculated it out making 50k in the armpit of nowhere USA turned out pretty close overall to making 75 or 80k in SF or NY with taxes, commute time, and cost of living factored in.
  - jcheng 13y ago
    Where do you live?
  - mahyarm 13y ago
    You are talking after tax wages are you? I really hope so. Comp Sci college grads who like programming in Seattle & the SF Bay Area with maybe a year or less of experience are making more than 100k.
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    You've just met one. Pleased to make your acquaintance. Quite a bit above $100K too, and I don't even consider myself a guru/ninja/pirate/whatever programmer either. I'm not alone either - literally every programmer I keep in regular touch with, and literally every programmer at the shop I work at is making well into the $100s. In fact, a good friend of mine the same age as me (mid-20s) just accepted an offer in the $180s. The cost of living argument is also mostly bull. I've lived and worked in 7 different cities, ranging from cheap $300 rooms on the wrong side of the tracks to $2000+ luxury high-rises. Nowadays I live in Manhattan, and I've done the math multiple times - it costs me about $20K more per year (with fairly generous numbers) to live here than in, say, Seattle WA where I once worked. Of course, the pay difference between NYC and elsewhere is a lot higher than $20K. Even accounting for taxes, food, and everything you're still coming out well ahead.
    - Glyptodon 13y ago
      The COL is bull if you're making a huge salary, sure. Then it doesn't matter where you live. But if you made $50k/year and got an offer to work somewhere for $75k/year but the cost of living was $20k more, it wouldn't make sense. I know some of the best developers in my college class have ended up getting paid 45k to 65k a year in places like Phoenix because that's what was available job wise.

by BSousa 13y ago

jandrewrogers 13y ago

I do not buy the argument that employers simply do not want to pay. That might be true in Europe but not in the US. If that was true then it would not be the case that everyone is having difficulty finding employees; many companies pay very well and are still in that position. Here are average US regional tech wages in 2012 according to the TechAmerica Foundation: California: $123,900 Massachusetts: $116,000 Washington: $110,200 And I know at many companies the average is more like $150,000 and still have a very difficult time hiring software engineers. I doubt most of the public will be sympathetic to claims that the only reason these positions go unfilled is that companies are unwilling to pay an appropriate wage.

eli_gottlieb 13y ago
And again: these are all places with such a vastly over-inflated cost of living that six figure salaries are what you have to pay to put people into a middle-class lifestyle. My guess? Expensive real-estate all over the world just makes it harder and harder to pay for anything, especially employees you have to relocate. And severe socioeconomic and infrastructural inequality makes it a lot tougher to get out of the "center and periphery" problem.
Glyptodon 13y ago
Your stats are a farce. I've never met a programmer/software developer in my life who makes more than 100k if they aren't essentially management. Median US salary for a software developer is $69,564. The 90% percentile is 100k. Please come back to planet Earth. Likewise, in places where wages are higher it appears to be mostly about cost of living. The last time I calculated it out making 50k in the armpit of nowhere USA turned out pretty close overall to making 75 or 80k in SF or NY with taxes, commute time, and cost of living factored in.
- jcheng 13y ago
  Where do you live?
- mahyarm 13y ago
  You are talking after tax wages are you? I really hope so. Comp Sci college grads who like programming in Seattle & the SF Bay Area with maybe a year or less of experience are making more than 100k.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  You've just met one. Pleased to make your acquaintance. Quite a bit above $100K too, and I don't even consider myself a guru/ninja/pirate/whatever programmer either. I'm not alone either - literally every programmer I keep in regular touch with, and literally every programmer at the shop I work at is making well into the $100s. In fact, a good friend of mine the same age as me (mid-20s) just accepted an offer in the $180s. The cost of living argument is also mostly bull. I've lived and worked in 7 different cities, ranging from cheap $300 rooms on the wrong side of the tracks to $2000+ luxury high-rises. Nowadays I live in Manhattan, and I've done the math multiple times - it costs me about $20K more per year (with fairly generous numbers) to live here than in, say, Seattle WA where I once worked. Of course, the pay difference between NYC and elsewhere is a lot higher than $20K. Even accounting for taxes, food, and everything you're still coming out well ahead.
  - Glyptodon 13y ago
    The COL is bull if you're making a huge salary, sure. Then it doesn't matter where you live. But if you made $50k/year and got an offer to work somewhere for $75k/year but the cost of living was $20k more, it wouldn't make sense. I know some of the best developers in my college class have ended up getting paid 45k to 65k a year in places like Phoenix because that's what was available job wise.