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This description of the European startup labor "shortage" sounds so similar to reports from the US that it makes me wonder how diametrically opposed political s

This description of the European startup labor "shortage" sounds so similar to reports from the US that it makes me wonder how diametrically opposed political systems end up with the same set of problems. Of course, when it comes to immigration forces on both ends of the political spectrum aren't so different. The populism of the left and right wing differs in rhetoric but not is substance.

kaybe 13y ago
>diametrically opposed political systems Hey, the world is so much wider than this. How do you see them diametrically oppsed? (Which makes me think about how to sort political systems anyway.. even if you give me a manifold to work with, so diametrically opposed makes sense in a geometrical sense.. high-dimensional delirium)
- zwieback 13y ago
  Maybe not the best choice of words on my part but within the context of liberal democracies I'd say the US system as opposed to the aggregate of the European systems is vastly different, different enough for me to look at them as opposed systems. Maybe it's also a result of my living in the western US after having grown up in Germany. Vastly oversimplifying I would say that here we start with the question "What is good for the individual and for business?" whereas in Germany it seemed more like "What's good for society and country as a whole?" Either way you end up with a lot of compromises but I think the basic starting point is really quite different.
  - kaybe 13y ago
    > within the context of liberal democracies Ok, now it makes sense.. from the generous phrasing of your parent comment, I thought of all the other systems out there and how they are that much farther from both the US and Europe. (I'm german, btw. I have never been to the US (apart from NY which apparently doesn't count); and it's hard to judge differences from just media.)
toyg 13y ago
The problem is the same because the basic institution involved is the same: for-profit companies, aka businesses. If bossmen don't pay enough, skilled workers won't sell their labour.
onemorepassword 13y ago
You would be surprised to learn that immigration for qualified tech and science people is a lot easier in many European countries than it is in the US. An American with a job offer can easily get a work permit in the Netherlands, no quota and nice tax rebate to boot. The shortage is the same for the same simple reason: qualified people simply aren't there. We can hire from the US, Canada and all of the EU, that still doesn't solve our problem.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  Actually, I think qualified people are there. But the job market for programmers right now is a bit like the dating market: the really good prospects, at any given time, will most likely already be involved with someone. So the reserve army of unemployed programmers is really tiny.
Ovid 13y ago
The labor shortages are on both sides. However, the visa system in the US is horribly broken (http://www.overseas-exile.com/2013/04/whos-hiring-h1b-visa-workers-in-usa.html http://www.overseas-exile.com/2013/04/whos-hiring-h1b-visa-w...). Further, with the introduction of the European Blue Card (http://www.overseas-exile.com/2011/02/european-blue-card.html http://www.overseas-exile.com/2011/02/european-blue-card.htm...), entry to Europe is getting easier and easier for skilled workers. Both sides have a labor shortage, but the US has traditionally had an advantage with one language and immigration law for 50 states. Now this is changing since Europe is starting to address the issue.

kaybe 13y ago

>diametrically opposed political systems Hey, the world is so much wider than this. How do you see them diametrically oppsed? (Which makes me think about how to sort political systems anyway.. even if you give me a manifold to work with, so diametrically opposed makes sense in a geometrical sense.. high-dimensional delirium)

zwieback 13y ago
Maybe not the best choice of words on my part but within the context of liberal democracies I'd say the US system as opposed to the aggregate of the European systems is vastly different, different enough for me to look at them as opposed systems. Maybe it's also a result of my living in the western US after having grown up in Germany. Vastly oversimplifying I would say that here we start with the question "What is good for the individual and for business?" whereas in Germany it seemed more like "What's good for society and country as a whole?" Either way you end up with a lot of compromises but I think the basic starting point is really quite different.
- kaybe 13y ago
  > within the context of liberal democracies Ok, now it makes sense.. from the generous phrasing of your parent comment, I thought of all the other systems out there and how they are that much farther from both the US and Europe. (I'm german, btw. I have never been to the US (apart from NY which apparently doesn't count); and it's hard to judge differences from just media.)

toyg 13y ago

The problem is the same because the basic institution involved is the same: for-profit companies, aka businesses. If bossmen don't pay enough, skilled workers won't sell their labour.

onemorepassword 13y ago

You would be surprised to learn that immigration for qualified tech and science people is a lot easier in many European countries than it is in the US. An American with a job offer can easily get a work permit in the Netherlands, no quota and nice tax rebate to boot. The shortage is the same for the same simple reason: qualified people simply aren't there. We can hire from the US, Canada and all of the EU, that still doesn't solve our problem.

eli_gottlieb 13y ago
Actually, I think qualified people are there. But the job market for programmers right now is a bit like the dating market: the really good prospects, at any given time, will most likely already be involved with someone. So the reserve army of unemployed programmers is really tiny.

Ovid 13y ago

The labor shortages are on both sides. However, the visa system in the US is horribly broken (http://www.overseas-exile.com/2013/04/whos-hiring-h1b-visa-workers-in-usa.html http://www.overseas-exile.com/2013/04/whos-hiring-h1b-visa-w...). Further, with the introduction of the European Blue Card (http://www.overseas-exile.com/2011/02/european-blue-card.html http://www.overseas-exile.com/2011/02/european-blue-card.htm...), entry to Europe is getting easier and easier for skilled workers. Both sides have a labor shortage, but the US has traditionally had an advantage with one language and immigration law for 50 states. Now this is changing since Europe is starting to address the issue.