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With expensive safety features and the increasing cost of college, we are no longer in a world where most middle-class teenagers could realistically save up for

With expensive safety features and the increasing cost of college, we are no longer in a world where most middle-class teenagers could realistically save up for and purchase a (reasonably safe) car. My parents wouldn't want me in something without a strong frame, airbags, ABS, and traction control. That puts the minimum cost of safe car at more like $5,000 than $500. If I ever see that much money in one place (I haven't), it'll go straight to my tuition bill. No way could my family justify spending that much on my entertainment. And even if it never needed repairs, I doubt I'd break even on driving to a minimum-wage job for 2-3 years. Owning and taking pride in our cars is not a part of life for teenagers in my town like it was for my parents in the 60s and 70s. Things have changed, and I think college and car ownership costs are a major factor.

mpyne 13y ago
Well, cars and college have certainly both become relatively much more expensive over time, but why are you mentioning what your parents would or would not want you to drive? Owning a car for the sake of owning a car is blessedly less "cool" in high school though, which I think has a lot to do with it as well. Just as much as the money aspect at least, I've seen teens manage to put thousands of dollars into cars when I was growing up just because that was their hobby. For them, their job supported the car, not the other way around.
- freehunter 13y ago
  If your parents are helping you buy a car in any way, you're at the mercy of what they approve of. Parents can also make life difficult for you if you're not following their recommendations, especially if you're still at their mercy for financial support. The teens you speak of are not the youths he speaks of. You're talking of teens without other financial obligations, living off their parents. He speaks of youths trying to make it on their own.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Sorry, I forget that there are teens out there where parents are able to help them buy a car, or remain financially involved once the kid is out the door.
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      The teens who spend all of the money from their job on their car are teens who are entirely supported by their parents. Many parents would expect that some of the wages that the child earns go towards offsetting the child's own cost. Some parents may even insist that the wages more than offset the upkeep of the child, and go towards helping support other children in the family (lots of single parent households.)
bluedino 13y ago
I don't think $5,000 is a reasonable minimum for a car. Depending on your area you should be able to find something that's reliable for $2,000, even if it's not a Volvo.
- VLM 13y ago
  Disagree. I live in a low cost of living area and the cheapest car sold by the local Carmax is $8K. Yes I know carmax isn't the cheapest place and they don't sell the dumpiest cars, but not by a factor of 4x... Cash for clunkers really screwed over the lower and lower-middle classes WRT transportation. As a side question, the $8K special is a '07 with 112K miles... Doesn't that imply a continuous equivalent average velocity since manufacture of something like three miles per hour, 24x7x365? That's crazy, almost like passenger jet aircraft that spend most of their life in the air. Now thats some owner who is not abandoning the car owner lifestyle or whatever. The math seems to estimate out to around seventy or eighty mile per day commute, maybe. Wowsers.
  - bluedino 13y ago
    > I live in a low cost of living area and the cheapest car sold by the local Carmax is $8K. You can buy used cars on craigslist, or go around looking for ones on the side of the road or in parking lots for sale. And a 2007 model year car came out in 2006, now it's 2013, so that car has been around for 7 years. 112,000/7 = 16,000 miles per year which isn't out of the ordinary. Most people put between 12-15,000 miles a year on a vehicle.
  - incision 13y ago
    >I live in a low cost of living area and the cheapest car sold by the local Carmax is $8K. The cheapest car sold by my local Carmax is $10K. At a glance, the cheapest cars they sell anywhere are in the 7-10K range. That's how a used car dealer works. They buy cars for $3K, run them through a carwash then sell them for $8K. The classifieds are full of decent/good cars in the $2-5K range.
  - brazzy 13y ago
    > three miles per hour, 24x7x365? That's crazy, Average velocity is a pretty braindead figure here. How about an average of 1.5 hours of use per day at an average velocity of 48 mph? Doesn't sound so crazy any more.
maxerickson 13y ago
That's a rather strong definition of reasonably safe. I will certainly push back on traction control, in situations where it impacts safety more than handling, a teenager will generally have the flexibility to just stay off the road (which is even safer). ABS is a little more in the middle, but a safe driving mentality will provide a lot more safety than ABS, so I probably wouldn't look at it as make or break for a teenager car. All cars have reasonably strong frames. Safer modern vehicles generally gain some of that safety by crumpling, which they do by being weaker than their predecessors. A Model T would bounce off a tree at moderate speed...
- caw 13y ago
  My first car had airbags, but not ABS. My parents wanted me to get something with ABS, but the opportunity came up to buy the car for $800 (auto repair shop repo'd it after customer didn't pay bill). Repos aren't always a good deal though. My sister's second car was a repo that ended up needing almost $2k in repairs on top of the purchase price.
- superuser2 13y ago
  I live in the Wisconsin, where snow and ice do make safety features that improve handling a bit more important than they might be in the Valley. A safe driving mentality only goes so far when the roads are coated in ice for the several months. By strong frame I mean a car that hasn't been in a serious collision yet.
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    I learned to drive in the U.P.
pnathan 13y ago
I would not hesitate to purchase a clunker for a child so that they could find a job, both in high school and in college.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  This Today's 'sheltered youth' doesn't cease to amaze me. Your $500 car is safe (ok, maybe the $1000). It's not a VW bus, it's safe. Get out, get a job, go to college. Drive around. Sheesh Unless you live in an area with good public transport, so in this case dumping the car is an option.
  - pnathan 13y ago
    It amazes me that all these safety features are considered required, and that the bar is so high. Yes, they'd be nice, but people managed to survive prior to the safety features being engineered.
    - lmm 13y ago
      Except for those that didn't.
    - brazzy 13y ago
      Not all of them did: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in...
      - raverbashing 13y ago
        Well 2012 number is around 10 deaths per 100,000 habitants. In 1990 it was 17 per 100k. These are rates comparable to 1925 (while the number of cars was still in rapid ascent) Now, I don't know if there is a statistic of that, but it seems to me the main contributor to your road safety is yourself. So don't speed, don't DUI, know the limitations of your vehicle and you should be pretty safe even driving a car from 1990.
BruceIV 13y ago
When I turned 16 (within the past decade), Dad spent $1400 and bought a 12 year old old Mazda hatchback - the thing was completely gutless and didn't even have a stereo, let alone airbags and traction control (ABS, maybe, I feel like it's been pretty much standard for years now). Many of my classmates had similarly worthless cars - "reasonably safe" has a lot more to do with the driver than the vehicle (admittedly, young drivers tend to be stupid, but safer cars will just make them more reckless (at least at the macro level)).

mpyne 13y ago

Well, cars and college have certainly both become relatively much more expensive over time, but why are you mentioning what your parents would or would not want you to drive? Owning a car for the sake of owning a car is blessedly less "cool" in high school though, which I think has a lot to do with it as well. Just as much as the money aspect at least, I've seen teens manage to put thousands of dollars into cars when I was growing up just because that was their hobby. For them, their job supported the car, not the other way around.

freehunter 13y ago
If your parents are helping you buy a car in any way, you're at the mercy of what they approve of. Parents can also make life difficult for you if you're not following their recommendations, especially if you're still at their mercy for financial support. The teens you speak of are not the youths he speaks of. You're talking of teens without other financial obligations, living off their parents. He speaks of youths trying to make it on their own.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Sorry, I forget that there are teens out there where parents are able to help them buy a car, or remain financially involved once the kid is out the door.
  - pessimizer 13y ago
    The teens who spend all of the money from their job on their car are teens who are entirely supported by their parents. Many parents would expect that some of the wages that the child earns go towards offsetting the child's own cost. Some parents may even insist that the wages more than offset the upkeep of the child, and go towards helping support other children in the family (lots of single parent households.)

bluedino 13y ago

I don't think $5,000 is a reasonable minimum for a car. Depending on your area you should be able to find something that's reliable for $2,000, even if it's not a Volvo.

VLM 13y ago
Disagree. I live in a low cost of living area and the cheapest car sold by the local Carmax is $8K. Yes I know carmax isn't the cheapest place and they don't sell the dumpiest cars, but not by a factor of 4x... Cash for clunkers really screwed over the lower and lower-middle classes WRT transportation. As a side question, the $8K special is a '07 with 112K miles... Doesn't that imply a continuous equivalent average velocity since manufacture of something like three miles per hour, 24x7x365? That's crazy, almost like passenger jet aircraft that spend most of their life in the air. Now thats some owner who is not abandoning the car owner lifestyle or whatever. The math seems to estimate out to around seventy or eighty mile per day commute, maybe. Wowsers.
- bluedino 13y ago
  > I live in a low cost of living area and the cheapest car sold by the local Carmax is $8K. You can buy used cars on craigslist, or go around looking for ones on the side of the road or in parking lots for sale. And a 2007 model year car came out in 2006, now it's 2013, so that car has been around for 7 years. 112,000/7 = 16,000 miles per year which isn't out of the ordinary. Most people put between 12-15,000 miles a year on a vehicle.
- incision 13y ago
  >I live in a low cost of living area and the cheapest car sold by the local Carmax is $8K. The cheapest car sold by my local Carmax is $10K. At a glance, the cheapest cars they sell anywhere are in the 7-10K range. That's how a used car dealer works. They buy cars for $3K, run them through a carwash then sell them for $8K. The classifieds are full of decent/good cars in the $2-5K range.
- brazzy 13y ago
  > three miles per hour, 24x7x365? That's crazy, Average velocity is a pretty braindead figure here. How about an average of 1.5 hours of use per day at an average velocity of 48 mph? Doesn't sound so crazy any more.

maxerickson 13y ago

That's a rather strong definition of reasonably safe. I will certainly push back on traction control, in situations where it impacts safety more than handling, a teenager will generally have the flexibility to just stay off the road (which is even safer). ABS is a little more in the middle, but a safe driving mentality will provide a lot more safety than ABS, so I probably wouldn't look at it as make or break for a teenager car. All cars have reasonably strong frames. Safer modern vehicles generally gain some of that safety by crumpling, which they do by being weaker than their predecessors. A Model T would bounce off a tree at moderate speed...

caw 13y ago
My first car had airbags, but not ABS. My parents wanted me to get something with ABS, but the opportunity came up to buy the car for $800 (auto repair shop repo'd it after customer didn't pay bill). Repos aren't always a good deal though. My sister's second car was a repo that ended up needing almost $2k in repairs on top of the purchase price.
superuser2 13y ago
I live in the Wisconsin, where snow and ice do make safety features that improve handling a bit more important than they might be in the Valley. A safe driving mentality only goes so far when the roads are coated in ice for the several months. By strong frame I mean a car that hasn't been in a serious collision yet.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  I learned to drive in the U.P.

pnathan 13y ago

I would not hesitate to purchase a clunker for a child so that they could find a job, both in high school and in college.

raverbashing 13y ago
This Today's 'sheltered youth' doesn't cease to amaze me. Your $500 car is safe (ok, maybe the $1000). It's not a VW bus, it's safe. Get out, get a job, go to college. Drive around. Sheesh Unless you live in an area with good public transport, so in this case dumping the car is an option.
- pnathan 13y ago
  It amazes me that all these safety features are considered required, and that the bar is so high. Yes, they'd be nice, but people managed to survive prior to the safety features being engineered.
  - lmm 13y ago
    Except for those that didn't.
  - brazzy 13y ago
    Not all of them did: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in...
    - raverbashing 13y ago
      Well 2012 number is around 10 deaths per 100,000 habitants. In 1990 it was 17 per 100k. These are rates comparable to 1925 (while the number of cars was still in rapid ascent) Now, I don't know if there is a statistic of that, but it seems to me the main contributor to your road safety is yourself. So don't speed, don't DUI, know the limitations of your vehicle and you should be pretty safe even driving a car from 1990.

BruceIV 13y ago

When I turned 16 (within the past decade), Dad spent $1400 and bought a 12 year old old Mazda hatchback - the thing was completely gutless and didn't even have a stereo, let alone airbags and traction control (ABS, maybe, I feel like it's been pretty much standard for years now). Many of my classmates had similarly worthless cars - "reasonably safe" has a lot more to do with the driver than the vehicle (admittedly, young drivers tend to be stupid, but safer cars will just make them more reckless (at least at the macro level)).