5 ms·

Yes, the word "startup" does seem to cause many developers to jump to wildly false conclusions about how much I intend to pay, what kind of backing I have, what

by nkoren 13y ago

Yes, the word "startup" does seem to cause many developers to jump to wildly false conclusions about how much I intend to pay, what kind of backing I have, what the working conditions will be like, etc. This is a surprise to me! Anyhow, I think you've given some very good advice, and I'll take it. Will you be at tomorrows's HNLondon meetup? I'd love to pick your brain for more advice on how to build a team here -- if not there, then perhaps over coffee sometime. Email me at nathan@podaris.com if you're interested.

hcho 13y ago
I won't be attending tomorrow's meetup. I'll drop you an email.
- nkoren 13y ago
  Great, I look forward to it!
groundCode 13y ago
I think this is certainly happending - my own first reaction to your job ad was "meh....equity over salary for a product that yesterday I didn't know existed"..... fwiw and from my perspective perhaps the problem is that you aren't advertising the salary you are offering - you want someone with significant experience - so we aren't talking about a recent graduate here, but someone with significant technical lead experience - experience most often comes with (at least a bit of) age and age comes with other responsibilities like family, kids, mortgage etc. Now they also have to believe in your product - so either they've already thought of it, or they need it sold to them. maybe you need to go developer courting rather than waiting for them to drop through your door?
- nkoren 13y ago
  I've been actively courting developers for a few weeks now. I've found loads of qualified developers who are willing to freelance for a couple of months -- which unfortunately excludes them from consideration for the kind of roles I need. You're perhaps right that explicitly stating the salary might be a better way to go. I've been patterning my job listings after those of more established companies, which generally do not state their salaries upfront. But when people see that we're a new company, their immediate assumptions are so negative (and wrong) that perhaps we need to go the extra mile to overcome those...
  - groundCode 13y ago
    well, last opinion from this peanut gallery - you've done a better job selling your startup on this thread than on your job add - the advert you have up there is prosaic and doesn't really express the passion you obviously have. Of course, just my opinion :)
  - LucasKA 13y ago
    It's not just about salary. It's about the culture of people. Your job descriptions talk about what YOU want and the tech, and you claim that we are going to change the world. What about what your prospective team wants? That's who you need to appeal to. For instance, look at Shopify's career page. http://www.shopify.com/careers http://www.shopify.com/careers -Video of the team (Show don't tell, culture, work and play) -Lists of the benefits (You're a human, that has a life, and we aren't going to abandon you when life events happen. We want you to stay healthy, have current gear, an vestation in the company and the ability to hone your skills and keep learning.) -Pictures of a great environment and what it's like, testimonials from team members. Salary HAS to be competitive, because no one in their right mind would say "Now hiring for 20% less than the industry median!" Get real. You need to talk to people about why it's worth it to come in and work their asses off for a super risky company.
    - nkoren 13y ago
      Not a very useful comparison, to be honest: Shopify is a well-established company at this point, and I'm a startup. Obviously I have every intention of creating a great environment for and with the team, but in the beginning, it's only possible to say that, not show it. So you're asking to see something (videos, pictures, and testimonials from the team) that no startup -- ever -- can demonstrate. You can't eat a pie before you have it.
      - LucasKA 13y ago
        Fair enough on the established thing. My point was more to the fact that before you even see a job description, or what they want from you, they lead with why they want to you as an early startup, I'd be interested in why you don't have a programmer/technical cofounder? That's normally how you'd get that ownership you want. I know I sure wouldn't own a project (YOUR project) on the level you describe without significant equity. Cause otherwise its a gig that will probably be gone in a year.

by nkoren 13y ago

hcho 13y ago

I won't be attending tomorrow's meetup. I'll drop you an email.

nkoren 13y ago
Great, I look forward to it!

groundCode 13y ago

I think this is certainly happending - my own first reaction to your job ad was "meh....equity over salary for a product that yesterday I didn't know existed"..... fwiw and from my perspective perhaps the problem is that you aren't advertising the salary you are offering - you want someone with significant experience - so we aren't talking about a recent graduate here, but someone with significant technical lead experience - experience most often comes with (at least a bit of) age and age comes with other responsibilities like family, kids, mortgage etc. Now they also have to believe in your product - so either they've already thought of it, or they need it sold to them. maybe you need to go developer courting rather than waiting for them to drop through your door?

nkoren 13y ago
I've been actively courting developers for a few weeks now. I've found loads of qualified developers who are willing to freelance for a couple of months -- which unfortunately excludes them from consideration for the kind of roles I need. You're perhaps right that explicitly stating the salary might be a better way to go. I've been patterning my job listings after those of more established companies, which generally do not state their salaries upfront. But when people see that we're a new company, their immediate assumptions are so negative (and wrong) that perhaps we need to go the extra mile to overcome those...
- groundCode 13y ago
  well, last opinion from this peanut gallery - you've done a better job selling your startup on this thread than on your job add - the advert you have up there is prosaic and doesn't really express the passion you obviously have. Of course, just my opinion :)
- LucasKA 13y ago
  It's not just about salary. It's about the culture of people. Your job descriptions talk about what YOU want and the tech, and you claim that we are going to change the world. What about what your prospective team wants? That's who you need to appeal to. For instance, look at Shopify's career page. http://www.shopify.com/careers http://www.shopify.com/careers -Video of the team (Show don't tell, culture, work and play) -Lists of the benefits (You're a human, that has a life, and we aren't going to abandon you when life events happen. We want you to stay healthy, have current gear, an vestation in the company and the ability to hone your skills and keep learning.) -Pictures of a great environment and what it's like, testimonials from team members. Salary HAS to be competitive, because no one in their right mind would say "Now hiring for 20% less than the industry median!" Get real. You need to talk to people about why it's worth it to come in and work their asses off for a super risky company.
  - nkoren 13y ago
    Not a very useful comparison, to be honest: Shopify is a well-established company at this point, and I'm a startup. Obviously I have every intention of creating a great environment for and with the team, but in the beginning, it's only possible to say that, not show it. So you're asking to see something (videos, pictures, and testimonials from the team) that no startup -- ever -- can demonstrate. You can't eat a pie before you have it.
    - LucasKA 13y ago
      Fair enough on the established thing. My point was more to the fact that before you even see a job description, or what they want from you, they lead with why they want to you as an early startup, I'd be interested in why you don't have a programmer/technical cofounder? That's normally how you'd get that ownership you want. I know I sure wouldn't own a project (YOUR project) on the level you describe without significant equity. Cause otherwise its a gig that will probably be gone in a year.