7 ms·

What are the anti-piracy people supposed to do? They trusted the web design firm and apparently were let down. Should the site owner have to vet the content aga

by bobsy 13y ago

What are the anti-piracy people supposed to do? They trusted the web design firm and apparently were let down. Should the site owner have to vet the content again? I was on a site buying icons the other day and it occurred to me. There is no way for me to know for sure if this icon I am buying is being sold by the original author. Sure.. I have proof of purchase but if the guy is reselling without permission I have no idea where it leaves me. Which brings us back to this. Photos from an image bank were apparently used. Well.. anyone can be at fault for putting the images in. Naive intern is just as likely as some rip-off merchant. I disagree with what the Anti-Piracy people do but I sympathize if they had nothing to do this and were let down by designers / rogue image reseller.

kevingadd 13y ago
They're supposed to be internally consistent. "I had no way to know the distributor of the content didn't have the rights to it" isn't an excuse most IP holders will accept, regardless of whether or not you happened to pay for the content. It's almost as if IP rights for content in the modern era are incredibly complex, and it's very difficult to actually be certain you have the rights for anything, making it kind of absurd to threaten people and take them to court for minor violations that could be resolved through other means!
- coldtea 13y ago
  >It's almost as if IP rights for content in the modern era are incredibly complex, and it's very difficult to actually be certain you have the rights for anything, making it kind of absurd to threaten people and take them to court for minor violations that could be resolved through other means! Yes, although this is not exactly the case. It's not like they are getting people to court for cases like this -- which could be legitimate ignorance. They do it for people downloading and sharing copyrighted content knowingly. Now, if somebody else was using their wifi, that's another thing (and it can be shown in court). But they don't really do it for cases that are analogous to "i trusted a website company and they used pirated stock photos".
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    > But they don't really do it for cases that are analogous to "i trusted a website company and they used pirated stock photos". No? At least Getty Images does [1]. You can try and sue your website company for damages, but that's another story. The copyright owner will sue you since you're using the images without permission. [1] sorry, german: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/2013/04/urheberrecht-gettyimages-und-waldorffrommer-weiterhin-aktiv-bei-unberechtigter-nutzung/ http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/2013/04/urheberrecht-gettyimage...
  - wnight 13y ago
    So if I buy a music player and it comes with 40g of music on it I should assume it's fine and trust the company that sold it to me. Sweet. No, the poster above had it right. It's not the specific remedies that're needed, it's them throwing open the door the way they would want if they were investigating. Sure, this may be a mistake, but if it's an important issue as they make it out to be, they shouldn't brush it off.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      >So if I buy a music player and it comes with 40g of music on it I should assume it's fine and trust the company that sold it to me. Sweet. Yes, you should. If you were sold that, and it's not licensed, it's the companies fault. That can be easily be shown in court.
  - genwin 13y ago
    The owner of a stock photo can charge any price they want. Canipre is just as hypocritical when they ignore stock photo violations. They should have a receipt for every copied resource on their site, or proof that it's free.
  - csense 13y ago
    > It's not like they are getting people to court for cases like this -- which could be legitimate ignorance. How do you know they aren't? It might be very easy for someone who's not technically knowledgeable to plug in a wifi router without configuring it, leaving their Internet connection open.
vy8vWJlco 13y ago
The article touches on that angle: Canipre quickly took on the role of “innocent” infringer and blamed their web design firm for obtaining the photos. The design firm allegedly took content from an image bank, but that would have to be a rogue outfit as Houk never sold away his rights. In any case, Canipre is of course ultimately responsible for the content that appears on their company website, just like they hold an Internet subscriber responsible for the infringing behavior of their neighbors. "At least" with direct commercial copyright infringement, there's something to sue over (the profit made from the sale), but when people go so far as to hold ISPs (including individuals running open hotspots, or routing gateways, or Tor exits - which few people can afford to accept liability for) and online services (like Megaupload and the Pirate Bay which, based on my current understanding, are not selling anything they aren't entitled to, even if one could show they made money off of aggregation; they aren't claiming to have made anything they aggregate), for example - when we are effectively holding intermediaries responsible for other people's behaviour I think something is wrong, and service neutrality is effectively on the block.
- kevingadd 13y ago
  If anything this is a more clear-cut case of the intermediary bearing responsibility. Even if the design agency is responsible for originally stealing the work, they paid for the design without demanding proof that they actually had the rights to use the design, and they put it up on the internet without having proof that they had those rights. And this is all done to directly enrich themselves. A far cry from 'common carriers' that, despite responding promptly to DMCA takedowns and other requests, still regularly get badgered and legally abused by IP rightsholders.
wyck 13y ago
This is normally inside a web contract, it's pretty easy to write a sentence saying "all media content will have the appropriate license and usage rights yadda yadda...", this isn't even due diligence, it's common. It's the job of the web developer to educate a client, in the case of a copyright infringement company you would think the operators have more knowledge of thier assets unless they were flat out lied too. For a company that specializes in copyright infringement I find their stance unacceptable, how can you possible trust their business process if they are making mistakes which they supposedly enforce.. It's important to note they are also using copyright javascript that has proper attribution in the source, though it is not following the exact rules ( you could nitpick that it's not in the header as requested).
DanBC 13y ago
>What are the anti-piracy people supposed to do? Make it very clear when having a website designed that all images (etc) must be correctly licensed. Have an independant person audit the licensing. Keep records of the licences. Have some clause about payments / refunds for improperly licensed images. They hold other people to these high levels. They should hold themselves to the same level.
- astrodust 13y ago
  Oh the irony if their "web design" firm is using pirated software.
Goronmon 13y ago
What are the anti-piracy people supposed to do? They trusted the web design firm and apparently were let down. Should the site owner have to vet the content again? Should Pirate Bay have to vet the content that it's users make available?
- gngeal 13y ago
  They should vet everything they host.
  - eCa 13y ago
    They host nothing except links. Should google be held responsible for what their search results contain?
    - gngeal 13y ago
      They host nothing except links. That was precisely my point. ;) (Basic math logic...)
spyder 13y ago
What are the piracy people supposed to do? They trusting the websites that provides full movies for them. Should the users have to vet the content again? I was on a site buying access to full movies the other day and it occurred to me. There is no way for me to know for sure if what I am buying is being sold by the original author. Sure.. I have proof of purchase but if the guy is reselling without permission I have no idea where it leaves me...
- gizmo686 13y ago
  The situation seems even worse for free streaming services. If I go to Hulu.com and watch something, I am pretty sure they have the rights to show it to me. If I go to Megavideo (when it was up), I am pretty sure they do not. If I go to youtube (and watch something potentially copyrighted), I have no idea if they have rights.
corresation 13y ago
I was on a site buying icons the other day and it occurred to me. There is no way for me to know for sure if this icon I am buying is being sold by the original author. I've been buying 3D models and going through the same thought process. I pay and follow process to ensure that every i is dotted and t is crossed, but ultimately in the future I might find that I still have copyright issues because intermediary parties weren't honest. This story, while allowing people to yell about inconsistencies and hypocrisy, is just not interesting unless someone, anyone, knows that they intentionally and knowingly used unlicensed content. When someone downloads a movie through a pirate bay link, they do know what they're doing.
- rangibaby 13y ago
  > When someone downloads a movie through a pirate bay link, they do know what they're doing. Do they? Would it make a difference in court if they didn't?
  - guizzy 13y ago
    IANAL, but it seems that in US law, it can make a difference, but doesn't wave away the infringement completely. http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Innocent_infringement http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Innocent_infringement In the case we're talking about, it seems like scenario #2 applies.
genwin 13y ago
No sympathy is deserved when they're aware of the situation and pointing fingers instead of correcting the problem to meet the same high standards they demand of others. At this point the authors of the materials infringed deserve some compensation from Canipre.
dspillett 13y ago
> What are the anti-piracy people supposed to do? In this specific circumstance: make exactly the same amends they would expect anyone else to make if they had found someone else inadvertently distributing unlicensed media, which would probably at least be: * Immediate removal of the content until such time license to use it is arranged * Payment in full at the author's chosen rate for licensing the content for the period they were using it * Perhaps including a significant multiplier if the content creators chose to license per user not per server/service * Definitely including opportunity costs (such as the interest the content creators could have earned had that money been in their accounts from the point it should have been, or interest they have paid out because the money wasn't) * Willingly open their doors (or not moan when a law enforcer kicks their doors open) for a third party auditor to verify the state of other media they are using If they are unable to pay immediately, a payment plan (with appropriate interest arrangement, increasing the debt by at least enough to recompense the creators for the continued inconvenience of not having the money and the continued risk of the debt never being paid if the group folds) should be arranged. > I sympathize if they had nothing to do this and were let down by designers / rogue image reseller. They would not accept the 3rd party responsibility argument if they were going after someone, so they should not be able to use it either. They should pay any costs directly. If they wish to hold one of their suppliers responsible then they can take separate action to be reimbursed for those funds. Our sympathy should extend just as far as their's would, which is basically the "setting up a repayment plan instead of demanding all the money this instant or sending them to do prison time" thing. That feels fair to me. If the content creators in question want to be more generous in their interpretation of the situation then that would be fine too of course, as long as the group doesn't expect them to be more generous.
- diminoten 13y ago
  If you disagree with what this anti-piracy group is doing, how is it fair to apply the standards they support? Isn't it necessarily, then, unfair to apply their standards to anyone, if you disagree with those standards? It seems like you'd be agreeing with them if you asked them to apply their own standards to themselves. You either think they're right or they're wrong, and if you think they're wrong, some poetic justice shouldn't be enough to break your own moral code. That seems more indefensible than holding an incorrect set of views - to attempt to knowingly apply views you believe are wrong to someone because it satisfies a primal urge for vengeance.
belorn 13y ago
Comments like this lacks context when discussing law, accountability and moral responsibilities. The anti-piracy people proclaims that they are copyright experts. This is the domain that they are supposedly educated in, work in, and should have expert knowledge in. Its what they claim in courts all over the world. As such, yes, they should had vet any content that they host in their name or the service they outsourced. In this context, they should had known better. A normal consumer is not however expected to do this. When I go an hire a lawyer, or a medical professional, or a construction worker, I am not expected to vet that they know what they are doing. However, if I own a law firm, I am somewhat responsible for those I hire or outsource. If I own a hospital, I must vet the doctors before hiring them. If I am building a bridge, I better make sure those construction workers know what they are doing or be prepared to face responsibility. Contextless, responsibility is at those you buy a service from. With context, it can end up at the buyer. In this case, The anti-piracy people are more responsible for the content they host than the average person who post something on their blog.

by bobsy 13y ago

kevingadd 13y ago

They're supposed to be internally consistent. "I had no way to know the distributor of the content didn't have the rights to it" isn't an excuse most IP holders will accept, regardless of whether or not you happened to pay for the content. It's almost as if IP rights for content in the modern era are incredibly complex, and it's very difficult to actually be certain you have the rights for anything, making it kind of absurd to threaten people and take them to court for minor violations that could be resolved through other means!

coldtea 13y ago
>It's almost as if IP rights for content in the modern era are incredibly complex, and it's very difficult to actually be certain you have the rights for anything, making it kind of absurd to threaten people and take them to court for minor violations that could be resolved through other means! Yes, although this is not exactly the case. It's not like they are getting people to court for cases like this -- which could be legitimate ignorance. They do it for people downloading and sharing copyrighted content knowingly. Now, if somebody else was using their wifi, that's another thing (and it can be shown in court). But they don't really do it for cases that are analogous to "i trusted a website company and they used pirated stock photos".
- Xylakant 13y ago
  > But they don't really do it for cases that are analogous to "i trusted a website company and they used pirated stock photos". No? At least Getty Images does [1]. You can try and sue your website company for damages, but that's another story. The copyright owner will sue you since you're using the images without permission. [1] sorry, german: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/2013/04/urheberrecht-gettyimages-und-waldorffrommer-weiterhin-aktiv-bei-unberechtigter-nutzung/ http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/2013/04/urheberrecht-gettyimage...
- wnight 13y ago
  So if I buy a music player and it comes with 40g of music on it I should assume it's fine and trust the company that sold it to me. Sweet. No, the poster above had it right. It's not the specific remedies that're needed, it's them throwing open the door the way they would want if they were investigating. Sure, this may be a mistake, but if it's an important issue as they make it out to be, they shouldn't brush it off.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >So if I buy a music player and it comes with 40g of music on it I should assume it's fine and trust the company that sold it to me. Sweet. Yes, you should. If you were sold that, and it's not licensed, it's the companies fault. That can be easily be shown in court.
- genwin 13y ago
  The owner of a stock photo can charge any price they want. Canipre is just as hypocritical when they ignore stock photo violations. They should have a receipt for every copied resource on their site, or proof that it's free.
- csense 13y ago
  > It's not like they are getting people to court for cases like this -- which could be legitimate ignorance. How do you know they aren't? It might be very easy for someone who's not technically knowledgeable to plug in a wifi router without configuring it, leaving their Internet connection open.

vy8vWJlco 13y ago

The article touches on that angle: Canipre quickly took on the role of “innocent” infringer and blamed their web design firm for obtaining the photos. The design firm allegedly took content from an image bank, but that would have to be a rogue outfit as Houk never sold away his rights. In any case, Canipre is of course ultimately responsible for the content that appears on their company website, just like they hold an Internet subscriber responsible for the infringing behavior of their neighbors. "At least" with direct commercial copyright infringement, there's something to sue over (the profit made from the sale), but when people go so far as to hold ISPs (including individuals running open hotspots, or routing gateways, or Tor exits - which few people can afford to accept liability for) and online services (like Megaupload and the Pirate Bay which, based on my current understanding, are not selling anything they aren't entitled to, even if one could show they made money off of aggregation; they aren't claiming to have made anything they aggregate), for example - when we are effectively holding intermediaries responsible for other people's behaviour I think something is wrong, and service neutrality is effectively on the block.

kevingadd 13y ago
If anything this is a more clear-cut case of the intermediary bearing responsibility. Even if the design agency is responsible for originally stealing the work, they paid for the design without demanding proof that they actually had the rights to use the design, and they put it up on the internet without having proof that they had those rights. And this is all done to directly enrich themselves. A far cry from 'common carriers' that, despite responding promptly to DMCA takedowns and other requests, still regularly get badgered and legally abused by IP rightsholders.

wyck 13y ago

This is normally inside a web contract, it's pretty easy to write a sentence saying "all media content will have the appropriate license and usage rights yadda yadda...", this isn't even due diligence, it's common. It's the job of the web developer to educate a client, in the case of a copyright infringement company you would think the operators have more knowledge of thier assets unless they were flat out lied too. For a company that specializes in copyright infringement I find their stance unacceptable, how can you possible trust their business process if they are making mistakes which they supposedly enforce.. It's important to note they are also using copyright javascript that has proper attribution in the source, though it is not following the exact rules ( you could nitpick that it's not in the header as requested).

DanBC 13y ago

>What are the anti-piracy people supposed to do? Make it very clear when having a website designed that all images (etc) must be correctly licensed. Have an independant person audit the licensing. Keep records of the licences. Have some clause about payments / refunds for improperly licensed images. They hold other people to these high levels. They should hold themselves to the same level.

astrodust 13y ago
Oh the irony if their "web design" firm is using pirated software.

Goronmon 13y ago

What are the anti-piracy people supposed to do? They trusted the web design firm and apparently were let down. Should the site owner have to vet the content again? Should Pirate Bay have to vet the content that it's users make available?

gngeal 13y ago
They should vet everything they host.
- eCa 13y ago
  They host nothing except links. Should google be held responsible for what their search results contain?
  - gngeal 13y ago
    They host nothing except links. That was precisely my point. ;) (Basic math logic...)

spyder 13y ago

What are the piracy people supposed to do? They trusting the websites that provides full movies for them. Should the users have to vet the content again? I was on a site buying access to full movies the other day and it occurred to me. There is no way for me to know for sure if what I am buying is being sold by the original author. Sure.. I have proof of purchase but if the guy is reselling without permission I have no idea where it leaves me...

gizmo686 13y ago
The situation seems even worse for free streaming services. If I go to Hulu.com and watch something, I am pretty sure they have the rights to show it to me. If I go to Megavideo (when it was up), I am pretty sure they do not. If I go to youtube (and watch something potentially copyrighted), I have no idea if they have rights.

corresation 13y ago

I was on a site buying icons the other day and it occurred to me. There is no way for me to know for sure if this icon I am buying is being sold by the original author. I've been buying 3D models and going through the same thought process. I pay and follow process to ensure that every i is dotted and t is crossed, but ultimately in the future I might find that I still have copyright issues because intermediary parties weren't honest. This story, while allowing people to yell about inconsistencies and hypocrisy, is just not interesting unless someone, anyone, knows that they intentionally and knowingly used unlicensed content. When someone downloads a movie through a pirate bay link, they do know what they're doing.

rangibaby 13y ago
> When someone downloads a movie through a pirate bay link, they do know what they're doing. Do they? Would it make a difference in court if they didn't?
- guizzy 13y ago
  IANAL, but it seems that in US law, it can make a difference, but doesn't wave away the infringement completely. http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Innocent_infringement http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Innocent_infringement In the case we're talking about, it seems like scenario #2 applies.

genwin 13y ago

No sympathy is deserved when they're aware of the situation and pointing fingers instead of correcting the problem to meet the same high standards they demand of others. At this point the authors of the materials infringed deserve some compensation from Canipre.

dspillett 13y ago

> What are the anti-piracy people supposed to do? In this specific circumstance: make exactly the same amends they would expect anyone else to make if they had found someone else inadvertently distributing unlicensed media, which would probably at least be: * Immediate removal of the content until such time license to use it is arranged * Payment in full at the author's chosen rate for licensing the content for the period they were using it * Perhaps including a significant multiplier if the content creators chose to license per user not per server/service * Definitely including opportunity costs (such as the interest the content creators could have earned had that money been in their accounts from the point it should have been, or interest they have paid out because the money wasn't) * Willingly open their doors (or not moan when a law enforcer kicks their doors open) for a third party auditor to verify the state of other media they are using If they are unable to pay immediately, a payment plan (with appropriate interest arrangement, increasing the debt by at least enough to recompense the creators for the continued inconvenience of not having the money and the continued risk of the debt never being paid if the group folds) should be arranged. > I sympathize if they had nothing to do this and were let down by designers / rogue image reseller. They would not accept the 3rd party responsibility argument if they were going after someone, so they should not be able to use it either. They should pay any costs directly. If they wish to hold one of their suppliers responsible then they can take separate action to be reimbursed for those funds. Our sympathy should extend just as far as their's would, which is basically the "setting up a repayment plan instead of demanding all the money this instant or sending them to do prison time" thing. That feels fair to me. If the content creators in question want to be more generous in their interpretation of the situation then that would be fine too of course, as long as the group doesn't expect them to be more generous.

diminoten 13y ago
If you disagree with what this anti-piracy group is doing, how is it fair to apply the standards they support? Isn't it necessarily, then, unfair to apply their standards to anyone, if you disagree with those standards? It seems like you'd be agreeing with them if you asked them to apply their own standards to themselves. You either think they're right or they're wrong, and if you think they're wrong, some poetic justice shouldn't be enough to break your own moral code. That seems more indefensible than holding an incorrect set of views - to attempt to knowingly apply views you believe are wrong to someone because it satisfies a primal urge for vengeance.

belorn 13y ago

Comments like this lacks context when discussing law, accountability and moral responsibilities. The anti-piracy people proclaims that they are copyright experts. This is the domain that they are supposedly educated in, work in, and should have expert knowledge in. Its what they claim in courts all over the world. As such, yes, they should had vet any content that they host in their name or the service they outsourced. In this context, they should had known better. A normal consumer is not however expected to do this. When I go an hire a lawyer, or a medical professional, or a construction worker, I am not expected to vet that they know what they are doing. However, if I own a law firm, I am somewhat responsible for those I hire or outsource. If I own a hospital, I must vet the doctors before hiring them. If I am building a bridge, I better make sure those construction workers know what they are doing or be prepared to face responsibility. Contextless, responsibility is at those you buy a service from. With context, it can end up at the buyer. In this case, The anti-piracy people are more responsible for the content they host than the average person who post something on their blog.