5 ms·

Where exactly are the programmers of which this article alludes? I recently received seed funding for my next startup (http://www.podaris.com/jobs.php http://ww

by nkoren 13y ago

Where exactly are the programmers of which this article alludes? I recently received seed funding for my next startup (http://www.podaris.com/jobs.php http://www.podaris.com/jobs.php), and am finding hiring developers to be extremely difficult. Yes, the work will be extremely diverse, you'll get to interact directly with customers, and you'll get to shape and take significant equity a product which can genuinely change the world -- but most developers out there don't seem to be looking for that. So far, 99% of the developers I've encountered have fit into one of two categories: 1.) Freelancers, who are committing to remaining so because of the lifestyle perks -- they want to be able to bugger off to that Australian walkabout more or less whenever they feel like it -- and the level of commitment which a startup requires just isn't appealing to them. 2.) 9-to-5ers, who want the safety and security of job with a large corporation or agency, and really don't mind dealing with the world through a dashboard. I can understand where both types of people are coming from, and can't fault them for it. What I haven't found is an abundance of developers who have the appetite for the high-commitment, high-uncertainty life which a startup entails.

eloisant 13y ago
There is an other category: people who want high-commitment, high-uncertainty, and chance of high reward they get by starting their own startup. Maybe you're asking people the same sacrifice you're doing, except that they'll be doing it for you rather than for themselves?
droelf 13y ago
That's because your startup is likely to fail. why should people want to design a multi-million dollar system in a "HTML5" - Browserbased - Solution done by a (max) 10 person-team? I just don't get how you'll ever appeal to your target group. But maybe -- hopefully -- I am wrong.
jasonkester 13y ago
I think you answered your question yourself. The guys who want to do it all are all busy doing it all. Notice the quote in the linked article: "I was actually thinking of starting my own business." That's what those guys are doing. If you're looking for somebody who's motivated to run every aspect of a business, but would prefer to run every aspect of your business rather than one in which he'd get 100% of everything, then yes, you're going to have a tough time of it. I'd recommend hiring one of those Australian Walkabout guys on their terms. They're probably just as capable of doing what you want done, and they don't come with any unrealistic expectations of what you'll give them. Pay them money in exchange for work until you either don't need them anymore or the money runs out. Then let them go with no hard feelings on either side.
- nkoren 13y ago
  Well, I'm certainly not looking for somebody to run "every aspect" of my business. I've raised the finance, developed the marketing plan, established contacts with almost a thousand prospective client organisations, defined the product requirements in consultation with the industry, and written the prototype software myself. That's taken years of work and is not something to sneeze at! But ultimately, I'm not a skilled developer, and my cobbled-together prototype is not something that can be taken to market. So a lot of programming will be required to turn this into commercial-quality software. The reason that I won't hire contractors to do that is that this is a highly specialised application -- not something that fits the mould of a typical web application -- and the developers will be instrumental in developing the core IP. It will take a few months for even the most skilled and experienced developer to get up to get fully up to speed with the internals details of this truly unique platform, and there will need to be many iterations of the platform as the product evolves. While it may be possible to do some of the peripheral work with freelancers (eg., the UI stuff, which will use fairly standard kit wherever possible), the unique core of the platform will only be maintainable if there is a stable team of developers to maintain it. Imagine if Google had tried to design and implement Pagerank, the Google File System, and its custom server architecture using catch-as-catch-can freelancers. That would have been a catastrophe; you just can't develop truly unique systems that way. I'm in roughly the same boat. However, if anything about what I've said has given the impression that I want people to "run every aspect of my business", then I am obviously not conveying my message clearly. I welcome suggestions for improvement!
  - jasonkester 13y ago
    I think you might be overstating the flakiness of independent contractors. I'm pretty much the exemplar of your "catch as catch can" type (though I've never called myself a freelancer), but I've had my share of long-term clients. I've had recurring stints with individual companies (with the aforemention bugger-off-to-Australia period in between when they didn't need me) spread out over the course of several years, and I've had multi-year contracts working 40 hour weeks building Big Things. The important bit that you might be missing is that it's generally the project owner who determines the length of the engagement. A pro will stick around as long as you need him. Then he'll take off and enjoy those lifestyle perks. Find some of that guy and you won't have any trouble getting your PagerankFileSystem finished.
6d0debc071 13y ago
> I recently received seed funding for my next startup (http://www.podaris.com/jobs.php http://www.podaris.com/jobs.php), and am finding hiring developers to be extremely difficult. I'm not surprised. You're trying to hire people with experience and significant skills - for which they're probably already being paid really well. Why would they quit their current projects and come work for you? Honestly, a lot of start-ups just seem to want to hire incredible valuable people and offer almost nothing in return for that value. Everyone wants experience - most commonly because they don't know enough about the project themselves to design a test that will distinguish those who know what they're doing from those who don't (which is hardly inspiring to begin with.) Why would anyone want a high-commitment, high-risk lifestyle without the probability of commensurably high returns though? You talk about high equity but equity in a failed project's not worth diddly. It's like... will you go work for this iffy guy in his shed for a couple of years on the basis of this product he's pinky-promised is awesome? You need to offer people something they can't get elsewhere if you want to hire them. And all you're offering is the chance to interact with customers and the chance to 'shape' the product. Which is just... marketing jargon. You can't trust that to mean anything. I suspect you'd be best off designing a test so that you can hire people with less experience, or just hiring one of the free lancers and accepting the uncertainty that they're going to stick around (trade on a risk for risk basis, essentially.)
- nkoren 13y ago
  > I'm not surprised. You're trying to hire people with experience and significant skills - for which they're probably already being paid really well. Why would they quit their current projects and come work for you? Because I'd pay them just as well, and offer them much more exciting and meaningful work, with a potentially huge equity payoff if things go really well? > Honestly, a lot of start-ups just seem to want to hire incredible valuable people and offer almost nothing in return for that value. -- Argh, stop right there. I really need to figure out how to combat this conclusion that people jump to. People see "startup" and immediately assume "slave wages". I'm equipped to pay competitive salaries PLUS significant equity. Unfortunately, nobody seems to believe that a startup will really do that, even when I say so in black-and-white. How can I improve my messaging so that people don't jump to this false conclusion? > It's like... will you go work for this iffy guy in his shed for a couple of years on the basis of this product he's pinky-promised is awesome? This "iffy guy" is actually widely recognised as the world's top expert in this particular field, who's executed over $100M in projects in the past few years, and who is getting significant backing to set up a development team in a nice office in London's Silicon Roundabout. But when I say that "I have a startup and we're hiring full-time developers", people automatically assume that I'm some dodgy character who will pay you peanuts to work out of a shed. Obviously I need to improve my message somewhat; possibly just dropping the word "startup", since this seems to cause people to jump to wildly false conclusions. See my other replies on this thread for why freelancers are not an option for me.
hcho 13y ago
I am currently contracting for a company in London, using more or less the same technologies as you do. They asked me to help build their team as well, so I know both sides of the table. I would not even think twice offering a job to someone decent with javascript at £45K. The job is 9-to-5, the company is mature, has been around for 2 decades, will probably still be in another 2. They'd be in the comfort of knowing that their salary will be in their account at each and every end of month. Betting companies are pushing the market upwards. Every person who took another offer over mine went to a betting company. So I have a feeling that I am only pitching for people who are morally against betting. So are you paying that kind of money? I have a feeling that you'd have to pay at least £10K over for my offer to compensate for the inherent uncertainty and as a premium the find that person quick.
- nkoren 13y ago
  Yes, I'm certainly expecting to pay around £50k for the lower-level developers; significantly more for the lead developer, and meaningful equity to boot. Unfortunately people see "startup" and assume that this means "sweat equity, slave wages". I don't believe in running a business that way -- haven't done it with my last two startups (both of which have been successful), and won't do it with this one either. But apparently stating that I'm offering competitive salaries isn't enough to convince people that I'm really offering, you know, competitive salaries. Is there a better way to drive this message home?
  - hcho 13y ago
    Maybe you can delay revealing the fact that you are a startup. Don't mention the equity till you come to negotiation, drop "Silicon Roundabout" from your job pages. Most developers have been burnt by startups at least once. I'd try not to remind the bad experiences before I have at least a chance to talk to them in person.
    - nkoren 13y ago
      Yes, the word "startup" does seem to cause many developers to jump to wildly false conclusions about how much I intend to pay, what kind of backing I have, what the working conditions will be like, etc. This is a surprise to me! Anyhow, I think you've given some very good advice, and I'll take it. Will you be at tomorrows's HNLondon meetup? I'd love to pick your brain for more advice on how to build a team here -- if not there, then perhaps over coffee sometime. Email me at nathan@podaris.com if you're interested.
JoeAltmaier 13y ago
That's quite a jaded view of freelancers. We've depended upon four at Sococo, who have given their lives, weekends, intellect and experience every bit as much as founders.
- nkoren 13y ago
  I use freelancers quite a bit for one of my other companies (www.futurescaper.com), and I have a huge amount of respect for them. I am happy to use them for many, many tasks. But not for developing the core, unique IP, since this is something that can't be worked on in a relatively plug-and-play fashion. As I said in another reply, imagine if Google had tried to design and implement Pagerank, the Google File System, and its custom server architecture using catch-as-catch-can freelancers. I'm in roughly the same boat. Freelancers can be stupendously great for working on more or less standard types of technology -- but when it comes to defining and maintaining truly unique pieces of technology, they are not the way to go.
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Hm. Our three core pieces of technology were developed by freelancers - our GUI engine, our audio/visual networking modules, and our server-side app model were all done by three different non-employees. They are all employees today, which I admit did change things. Principally, it means they can't/don't work the hours they used to (they work normal hours now). Since their compensation doesn't change with greater hours, they just don't have the same motivation they used to. Don't think it has to be stock options that made the difference. They got more of that as freelancers too - they exchanged a rate cut for options early on and came out ahead of any employee there too.
    - nkoren 13y ago
      Interesting. Did you have detailed specifications and requirements for each of those three components in advance of hiring the freelancers? Or was spec'ing out the architecture of the platform part of their brief? If the latter, then how did you ensure that the architecture they were developing was a good fit to the long-term development strategy for the platform, and how did you ensure coordination and cohesion between them? These aren't rhetorical questions, by the way -- I'm genuinely curious and would eager to have a chat about this. My experience has very much been that it's only really possible to integrate freelancers into a development process and product that's either fairly conventional or fairly mature. But if you've got a different experience, then I'd be keen to hear about it and learn from it! Contact me at nathan@podaris.com if you feel like talking in more depth at some point.

by nkoren 13y ago

eloisant 13y ago

There is an other category: people who want high-commitment, high-uncertainty, and chance of high reward they get by starting their own startup. Maybe you're asking people the same sacrifice you're doing, except that they'll be doing it for you rather than for themselves?

droelf 13y ago

That's because your startup is likely to fail. why should people want to design a multi-million dollar system in a "HTML5" - Browserbased - Solution done by a (max) 10 person-team? I just don't get how you'll ever appeal to your target group. But maybe -- hopefully -- I am wrong.

jasonkester 13y ago

I think you answered your question yourself. The guys who want to do it all are all busy doing it all. Notice the quote in the linked article: "I was actually thinking of starting my own business." That's what those guys are doing. If you're looking for somebody who's motivated to run every aspect of a business, but would prefer to run every aspect of your business rather than one in which he'd get 100% of everything, then yes, you're going to have a tough time of it. I'd recommend hiring one of those Australian Walkabout guys on their terms. They're probably just as capable of doing what you want done, and they don't come with any unrealistic expectations of what you'll give them. Pay them money in exchange for work until you either don't need them anymore or the money runs out. Then let them go with no hard feelings on either side.

nkoren 13y ago
Well, I'm certainly not looking for somebody to run "every aspect" of my business. I've raised the finance, developed the marketing plan, established contacts with almost a thousand prospective client organisations, defined the product requirements in consultation with the industry, and written the prototype software myself. That's taken years of work and is not something to sneeze at! But ultimately, I'm not a skilled developer, and my cobbled-together prototype is not something that can be taken to market. So a lot of programming will be required to turn this into commercial-quality software. The reason that I won't hire contractors to do that is that this is a highly specialised application -- not something that fits the mould of a typical web application -- and the developers will be instrumental in developing the core IP. It will take a few months for even the most skilled and experienced developer to get up to get fully up to speed with the internals details of this truly unique platform, and there will need to be many iterations of the platform as the product evolves. While it may be possible to do some of the peripheral work with freelancers (eg., the UI stuff, which will use fairly standard kit wherever possible), the unique core of the platform will only be maintainable if there is a stable team of developers to maintain it. Imagine if Google had tried to design and implement Pagerank, the Google File System, and its custom server architecture using catch-as-catch-can freelancers. That would have been a catastrophe; you just can't develop truly unique systems that way. I'm in roughly the same boat. However, if anything about what I've said has given the impression that I want people to "run every aspect of my business", then I am obviously not conveying my message clearly. I welcome suggestions for improvement!
- jasonkester 13y ago
  I think you might be overstating the flakiness of independent contractors. I'm pretty much the exemplar of your "catch as catch can" type (though I've never called myself a freelancer), but I've had my share of long-term clients. I've had recurring stints with individual companies (with the aforemention bugger-off-to-Australia period in between when they didn't need me) spread out over the course of several years, and I've had multi-year contracts working 40 hour weeks building Big Things. The important bit that you might be missing is that it's generally the project owner who determines the length of the engagement. A pro will stick around as long as you need him. Then he'll take off and enjoy those lifestyle perks. Find some of that guy and you won't have any trouble getting your PagerankFileSystem finished.

6d0debc071 13y ago

> I recently received seed funding for my next startup (http://www.podaris.com/jobs.php http://www.podaris.com/jobs.php), and am finding hiring developers to be extremely difficult. I'm not surprised. You're trying to hire people with experience and significant skills - for which they're probably already being paid really well. Why would they quit their current projects and come work for you? Honestly, a lot of start-ups just seem to want to hire incredible valuable people and offer almost nothing in return for that value. Everyone wants experience - most commonly because they don't know enough about the project themselves to design a test that will distinguish those who know what they're doing from those who don't (which is hardly inspiring to begin with.) Why would anyone want a high-commitment, high-risk lifestyle without the probability of commensurably high returns though? You talk about high equity but equity in a failed project's not worth diddly. It's like... will you go work for this iffy guy in his shed for a couple of years on the basis of this product he's pinky-promised is awesome? You need to offer people something they can't get elsewhere if you want to hire them. And all you're offering is the chance to interact with customers and the chance to 'shape' the product. Which is just... marketing jargon. You can't trust that to mean anything. I suspect you'd be best off designing a test so that you can hire people with less experience, or just hiring one of the free lancers and accepting the uncertainty that they're going to stick around (trade on a risk for risk basis, essentially.)

nkoren 13y ago
> I'm not surprised. You're trying to hire people with experience and significant skills - for which they're probably already being paid really well. Why would they quit their current projects and come work for you? Because I'd pay them just as well, and offer them much more exciting and meaningful work, with a potentially huge equity payoff if things go really well? > Honestly, a lot of start-ups just seem to want to hire incredible valuable people and offer almost nothing in return for that value. -- Argh, stop right there. I really need to figure out how to combat this conclusion that people jump to. People see "startup" and immediately assume "slave wages". I'm equipped to pay competitive salaries PLUS significant equity. Unfortunately, nobody seems to believe that a startup will really do that, even when I say so in black-and-white. How can I improve my messaging so that people don't jump to this false conclusion? > It's like... will you go work for this iffy guy in his shed for a couple of years on the basis of this product he's pinky-promised is awesome? This "iffy guy" is actually widely recognised as the world's top expert in this particular field, who's executed over $100M in projects in the past few years, and who is getting significant backing to set up a development team in a nice office in London's Silicon Roundabout. But when I say that "I have a startup and we're hiring full-time developers", people automatically assume that I'm some dodgy character who will pay you peanuts to work out of a shed. Obviously I need to improve my message somewhat; possibly just dropping the word "startup", since this seems to cause people to jump to wildly false conclusions. See my other replies on this thread for why freelancers are not an option for me.

hcho 13y ago

I am currently contracting for a company in London, using more or less the same technologies as you do. They asked me to help build their team as well, so I know both sides of the table. I would not even think twice offering a job to someone decent with javascript at £45K. The job is 9-to-5, the company is mature, has been around for 2 decades, will probably still be in another 2. They'd be in the comfort of knowing that their salary will be in their account at each and every end of month. Betting companies are pushing the market upwards. Every person who took another offer over mine went to a betting company. So I have a feeling that I am only pitching for people who are morally against betting. So are you paying that kind of money? I have a feeling that you'd have to pay at least £10K over for my offer to compensate for the inherent uncertainty and as a premium the find that person quick.

nkoren 13y ago
Yes, I'm certainly expecting to pay around £50k for the lower-level developers; significantly more for the lead developer, and meaningful equity to boot. Unfortunately people see "startup" and assume that this means "sweat equity, slave wages". I don't believe in running a business that way -- haven't done it with my last two startups (both of which have been successful), and won't do it with this one either. But apparently stating that I'm offering competitive salaries isn't enough to convince people that I'm really offering, you know, competitive salaries. Is there a better way to drive this message home?
- hcho 13y ago
  Maybe you can delay revealing the fact that you are a startup. Don't mention the equity till you come to negotiation, drop "Silicon Roundabout" from your job pages. Most developers have been burnt by startups at least once. I'd try not to remind the bad experiences before I have at least a chance to talk to them in person.
  - nkoren 13y ago
    Yes, the word "startup" does seem to cause many developers to jump to wildly false conclusions about how much I intend to pay, what kind of backing I have, what the working conditions will be like, etc. This is a surprise to me! Anyhow, I think you've given some very good advice, and I'll take it. Will you be at tomorrows's HNLondon meetup? I'd love to pick your brain for more advice on how to build a team here -- if not there, then perhaps over coffee sometime. Email me at nathan@podaris.com if you're interested.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago

That's quite a jaded view of freelancers. We've depended upon four at Sococo, who have given their lives, weekends, intellect and experience every bit as much as founders.

nkoren 13y ago
I use freelancers quite a bit for one of my other companies (www.futurescaper.com), and I have a huge amount of respect for them. I am happy to use them for many, many tasks. But not for developing the core, unique IP, since this is something that can't be worked on in a relatively plug-and-play fashion. As I said in another reply, imagine if Google had tried to design and implement Pagerank, the Google File System, and its custom server architecture using catch-as-catch-can freelancers. I'm in roughly the same boat. Freelancers can be stupendously great for working on more or less standard types of technology -- but when it comes to defining and maintaining truly unique pieces of technology, they are not the way to go.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Hm. Our three core pieces of technology were developed by freelancers - our GUI engine, our audio/visual networking modules, and our server-side app model were all done by three different non-employees. They are all employees today, which I admit did change things. Principally, it means they can't/don't work the hours they used to (they work normal hours now). Since their compensation doesn't change with greater hours, they just don't have the same motivation they used to. Don't think it has to be stock options that made the difference. They got more of that as freelancers too - they exchanged a rate cut for options early on and came out ahead of any employee there too.
  - nkoren 13y ago
    Interesting. Did you have detailed specifications and requirements for each of those three components in advance of hiring the freelancers? Or was spec'ing out the architecture of the platform part of their brief? If the latter, then how did you ensure that the architecture they were developing was a good fit to the long-term development strategy for the platform, and how did you ensure coordination and cohesion between them? These aren't rhetorical questions, by the way -- I'm genuinely curious and would eager to have a chat about this. My experience has very much been that it's only really possible to integrate freelancers into a development process and product that's either fairly conventional or fairly mature. But if you've got a different experience, then I'd be keen to hear about it and learn from it! Contact me at nathan@podaris.com if you feel like talking in more depth at some point.