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Having moved from the U.S. to northern Germany, I have to say: the difference is shocking. Here, mentally unstable homeless people are not a daily sight on the

Having moved from the U.S. to northern Germany, I have to say: the difference is shocking. Here, mentally unstable homeless people are not a daily sight on the city streets. In fact, I have seen only one San Francisco-style lunatic: and he was, indeed, raving in English. Saying that "United States social policy is [not] a model for anywhere" must be an understatement. I would ask: what social policy? Any aid from the government ("welfare") is heavily stigmatized, except perhaps for retirees. From homelessness to health care to public transportation to to education to racial tension to gun violence, the U.S. appears a mockery of itself. Regarding the homelessness situation in California, I learned in school that it had something to do with Governor Ronald Reagan dismantling the state's mental health system. Have you seen skid row in Los Angeles? I can't imagine that such a scene exists anywhere in western Europe. This article looks relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Stat...

tokenadult 13y ago
Having moved from the U.S. to northern Germany I'd really love to learn about what is actually done in Europe. Where is a "mentally unstable" person to be found in Germany? If a "San Francisco-style lunatic" (like the one you saw in public in Germany) is encountered out in public in Germany, where is he put? P.S. I have adequate reading knowledge of German to be able to read German-language links about what is done for such people in Germany, if anyone here has any such links to share.
- tobinfricke 13y ago
  I'd guess that easy access to health care plays a big role. Regarding the raving lunatic: presumably it's not a matter of "where to put" him, but that, with access to care, fewer people end up in that situation. In that particular case, everyone just kind of steered clear of the guy and let him go about his (crazy) business. Bystanders appeared shocked and fearful of his behavior, which in San Francisco would have been completely mundane.
- DanBC 13y ago
  England: If you're a danger to yourself or to other people there are various powers to detain you under section of the Mental Health Act. If you're in public a police officer will use a section 136 - that's to take you to a place of safety and have you assessed by doctors. If you're in a hospital nurses and doctors have powers to detain you for short times for you to be assessed. If you're in your home your "nearest relative" (that person is defined in law) can ask the community mental health to consider assessing you. They must consider your request, but they don't have to do an assessment. Or you can ask for an assessment. Or you could ask for a visit from your crisis[1] team, and they'll suggest an assessment. In general it is much better to be an informal patient (someone who goes into hospital voluntarily) rather than someone detained under section. In theory there should be a bunch of checks and measures. But, well, it's an imperfect world. If you are ever detained you should ask for the Code of Practice (they have to have a copy available for patients. They have to help you read it if you're having trouble reading) and for an advocate. (They must make advocacy available for you.) make a record of everything that is said to you. (http://www.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/Mental_Health_Act_1983_Code_Of_Practice_for_England http://www.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/Mental_Health_Act_1983_Code...) (http://www.mind.org.uk/mental_health_a-z/8052_mental_health_act http://www.mind.org.uk/mental_health_a-z/8052_mental_health_...)
- tobinfricke 13y ago
  Here's one example, from the city where I live: http://www.hw-hannover.de/ http://www.hw-hannover.de/ This is a state-sponsored program that provides housing and work for people with disabilities (I believe this includes or perhaps even mostly refers to mild mental disabilities, but I'm not sure). They operate a restaurant, a hotel, a bicycle workshop, landscaping service, mail delivery, and a bunch of other things. Mission statement (translated): "Our central task is to create opportunities so that people with disabilities can develop personally and professionally. We ensure this through individually tailored offers in the areas of employment, housing and food. For people - by people!"
- angusangus 13y ago
  It seems to me that the difference is not so much 'where those people are put' but rather that there are support mechanisms that help the majority of at-risk people before they deteriorate to the level of homelessness or mental disability that you commonly see in US city streets. EDIT: While there are obviously outlier cases where treatment is difficult, the majority of mental illness and homelessness is circumstantial and preventable.
- nawitus 13y ago
  >I'd really love to learn about what is actually done in Europe. Where is a "mentally unstable" person to be found in Germany? If a "San Francisco-style lunatic" (like the one you saw in public in Germany) is encountered out in public in Germany, where is he put? Some notes about the Finnish system: There are plenty of psychiatric hospitals where most mentally ill people are (those who are not cared by their parents or relatives). There are some alcoholics/"crazy people" on the streets, but most of them have housing that they pay for themselves (through social security) or they live in special apartments for homeless people. The whole country has about 1000 homeless people (for 5 million citizens). They could pay for their rent since they're entitled to "toimeentulotuki", a sum of about 700-1000 euros per month, but they probably spend it on alcohol or are unable to fill in the papers correctly (not an expert on homeless people here). There's no official minimum wage, but "general employement contracts" make the minimum wage about 7-10€ depending on the job. There's some regulation on rents too.
  - bmmayer1 13y ago
    >> "that they pay for themselves (through social security)" Lulz Europe.

tokenadult 13y ago

Having moved from the U.S. to northern Germany I'd really love to learn about what is actually done in Europe. Where is a "mentally unstable" person to be found in Germany? If a "San Francisco-style lunatic" (like the one you saw in public in Germany) is encountered out in public in Germany, where is he put? P.S. I have adequate reading knowledge of German to be able to read German-language links about what is done for such people in Germany, if anyone here has any such links to share.

tobinfricke 13y ago
I'd guess that easy access to health care plays a big role. Regarding the raving lunatic: presumably it's not a matter of "where to put" him, but that, with access to care, fewer people end up in that situation. In that particular case, everyone just kind of steered clear of the guy and let him go about his (crazy) business. Bystanders appeared shocked and fearful of his behavior, which in San Francisco would have been completely mundane.
DanBC 13y ago
England: If you're a danger to yourself or to other people there are various powers to detain you under section of the Mental Health Act. If you're in public a police officer will use a section 136 - that's to take you to a place of safety and have you assessed by doctors. If you're in a hospital nurses and doctors have powers to detain you for short times for you to be assessed. If you're in your home your "nearest relative" (that person is defined in law) can ask the community mental health to consider assessing you. They must consider your request, but they don't have to do an assessment. Or you can ask for an assessment. Or you could ask for a visit from your crisis[1] team, and they'll suggest an assessment. In general it is much better to be an informal patient (someone who goes into hospital voluntarily) rather than someone detained under section. In theory there should be a bunch of checks and measures. But, well, it's an imperfect world. If you are ever detained you should ask for the Code of Practice (they have to have a copy available for patients. They have to help you read it if you're having trouble reading) and for an advocate. (They must make advocacy available for you.) make a record of everything that is said to you. (http://www.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/Mental_Health_Act_1983_Code_Of_Practice_for_England http://www.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/Mental_Health_Act_1983_Code...) (http://www.mind.org.uk/mental_health_a-z/8052_mental_health_act http://www.mind.org.uk/mental_health_a-z/8052_mental_health_...)
tobinfricke 13y ago
Here's one example, from the city where I live: http://www.hw-hannover.de/ http://www.hw-hannover.de/ This is a state-sponsored program that provides housing and work for people with disabilities (I believe this includes or perhaps even mostly refers to mild mental disabilities, but I'm not sure). They operate a restaurant, a hotel, a bicycle workshop, landscaping service, mail delivery, and a bunch of other things. Mission statement (translated): "Our central task is to create opportunities so that people with disabilities can develop personally and professionally. We ensure this through individually tailored offers in the areas of employment, housing and food. For people - by people!"
angusangus 13y ago
It seems to me that the difference is not so much 'where those people are put' but rather that there are support mechanisms that help the majority of at-risk people before they deteriorate to the level of homelessness or mental disability that you commonly see in US city streets. EDIT: While there are obviously outlier cases where treatment is difficult, the majority of mental illness and homelessness is circumstantial and preventable.
nawitus 13y ago
>I'd really love to learn about what is actually done in Europe. Where is a "mentally unstable" person to be found in Germany? If a "San Francisco-style lunatic" (like the one you saw in public in Germany) is encountered out in public in Germany, where is he put? Some notes about the Finnish system: There are plenty of psychiatric hospitals where most mentally ill people are (those who are not cared by their parents or relatives). There are some alcoholics/"crazy people" on the streets, but most of them have housing that they pay for themselves (through social security) or they live in special apartments for homeless people. The whole country has about 1000 homeless people (for 5 million citizens). They could pay for their rent since they're entitled to "toimeentulotuki", a sum of about 700-1000 euros per month, but they probably spend it on alcohol or are unable to fill in the papers correctly (not an expert on homeless people here). There's no official minimum wage, but "general employement contracts" make the minimum wage about 7-10€ depending on the job. There's some regulation on rents too.
- bmmayer1 13y ago
  >> "that they pay for themselves (through social security)" Lulz Europe.