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The depressing part is reading the comments here on HN and realizing that some people just don't see what the problem is. Ok, fine, forget about the ethical asp

The depressing part is reading the comments here on HN and realizing that some people just don't see what the problem is. Ok, fine, forget about the ethical aspects here and understand that when you spam your customers like this you tarnish your image because you're effectively putting yourself in the same category as the people who try to sell fake rolex watches and viagra pills. I suggest that the next time a business, startup or not, tries to "lifecycle email" (yuck) you, don't unsubscribe - spam flag them. If some business people have such warped understanding of reality that they can't see spam when they send it, at least they can get penalized for it.

memset 13y ago
Haha, this is a totally fair thing to say. Talking about marketing, one can start to dehumanize people, and that is never good. There are some (many?) legitimate cases where I will sign up for a service and forget about it. (Rackspace's onboarding email says it best: "Did you get a text message? Meeting invite? It's okay, here, finish signing up.") If you sign up for Everlane, you do so because you are legitimately interested in buying new clothes. Fashion changes, and if they can keep me abreast of the latest and greatest, then I am getting value. If I signed up for Weebly because I need to publish a website, but for whatever reason I drop off, maybe their prompting will prompt me to go ahead and finish my site so that I can show it off to my friends. Of course, it's hard to know whether a customer will fall into one of those buckets, or "I just wanted to check out the site, leave me alone!" Maybe it is analogous to dating: flirting with someone is okay if the other person reciprocates, otherwise it is "creepy."
npsimons 13y ago
I suggest that the next time a business, startup or not, tries to "lifecycle email" (yuck) you, don't unsubscribe - spam flag them. Much as I smiled a wry grin at this suggestion, I have to say, don't fucking do this. Be an adult: if you signed up for something, take the time to try and unsubscribe first. No way to unsubscribe? Unsubscribe doesn't work? Okay, now you should start flagging as spam. Unsubscribing has the added benefit of being more direct, in a "hey, we spammed this guy with 4 emails in three days, then he suddenly unsubscribed", instead of going "why are we being marked as spam? our lists are completely opt-in!".
- scott_s 13y ago
  Giving a company my email is not implicit permission to email me whenever they want. If you actually checked the box "yes, please email me," then yes, you gave permission. But if I did no such thing, then it is spam.
  - lucisferre 13y ago
    I may be entirely wrong here, but I think it is. > the recipient has not verifiably granted deliberate, explicit, and still-revocable permission for it to be sent. I'm pretty sure that giving your e-mail is explicit permission and an unsubscribe link makes it still-revocable. That said I completely appreciate that emotionally it feel like spam, and I can't imagine why any business in their right mind would feel this was a good business practice. source: http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/ http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/
    - scott_s 13y ago
      Whether or not we consider that "spam" is a semantic argument. I do, because it litters my inbox and pisses me off. I recognize that people may want to distinguish it from bulk email from entities that you have no prior relationship with, but to me, that's immaterial.
    - PeterisP 13y ago
      No, giving my e-mail address is just that - giving an email address; it does not come with permission to send automated daily emails. For example, I login to facebook with my email address, but I have explicitly withdrawn any permission for facebook to send me any notifications by email in all the opt-out settings. Subscribing to messages should be explicitly opt-in, and in a bunch of countries is legally required to be opt-in. If I miss an opt-out checkbox, and you send a marketing email - that is spam by definition, if gmail decides to filter you out, then by all means it was the right thing to do; and if it was a local business, they would be fined for that.
    - rmrfrmrf 13y ago
      Luckily, the customer still has control over what spam means to them. If you're requiring an e-mail login on your site just so you can loophole your way into inundating me with e-mails sent by a machine, then I'm marking it as spam.
anoncow 13y ago
I flag twitter and facebook We-haven't-seen-you-in-a-long-time messages as spam. Because those emails are also about selling a product. But as someone who runs a tiny niche forum, I am tempted to mail users to return. So I am in a dilemma of sorts morally.
rmrfrmrf 13y ago
I have this argument with people I work with all the time because I'm the only one that's allowed to send out e-mail blasts. "WAHH, my 1% OFF sale is soooo important that I want to make sure nobody misses it. Can we send it out on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday? NO??? Do you realize that you're KILLING our business?" No. Everyone hates spam. Go away.

memset 13y ago

Haha, this is a totally fair thing to say. Talking about marketing, one can start to dehumanize people, and that is never good. There are some (many?) legitimate cases where I will sign up for a service and forget about it. (Rackspace's onboarding email says it best: "Did you get a text message? Meeting invite? It's okay, here, finish signing up.") If you sign up for Everlane, you do so because you are legitimately interested in buying new clothes. Fashion changes, and if they can keep me abreast of the latest and greatest, then I am getting value. If I signed up for Weebly because I need to publish a website, but for whatever reason I drop off, maybe their prompting will prompt me to go ahead and finish my site so that I can show it off to my friends. Of course, it's hard to know whether a customer will fall into one of those buckets, or "I just wanted to check out the site, leave me alone!" Maybe it is analogous to dating: flirting with someone is okay if the other person reciprocates, otherwise it is "creepy."

npsimons 13y ago

I suggest that the next time a business, startup or not, tries to "lifecycle email" (yuck) you, don't unsubscribe - spam flag them. Much as I smiled a wry grin at this suggestion, I have to say, don't fucking do this. Be an adult: if you signed up for something, take the time to try and unsubscribe first. No way to unsubscribe? Unsubscribe doesn't work? Okay, now you should start flagging as spam. Unsubscribing has the added benefit of being more direct, in a "hey, we spammed this guy with 4 emails in three days, then he suddenly unsubscribed", instead of going "why are we being marked as spam? our lists are completely opt-in!".

scott_s 13y ago
Giving a company my email is not implicit permission to email me whenever they want. If you actually checked the box "yes, please email me," then yes, you gave permission. But if I did no such thing, then it is spam.
- lucisferre 13y ago
  I may be entirely wrong here, but I think it is. > the recipient has not verifiably granted deliberate, explicit, and still-revocable permission for it to be sent. I'm pretty sure that giving your e-mail is explicit permission and an unsubscribe link makes it still-revocable. That said I completely appreciate that emotionally it feel like spam, and I can't imagine why any business in their right mind would feel this was a good business practice. source: http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/ http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/
  - scott_s 13y ago
    Whether or not we consider that "spam" is a semantic argument. I do, because it litters my inbox and pisses me off. I recognize that people may want to distinguish it from bulk email from entities that you have no prior relationship with, but to me, that's immaterial.
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    No, giving my e-mail address is just that - giving an email address; it does not come with permission to send automated daily emails. For example, I login to facebook with my email address, but I have explicitly withdrawn any permission for facebook to send me any notifications by email in all the opt-out settings. Subscribing to messages should be explicitly opt-in, and in a bunch of countries is legally required to be opt-in. If I miss an opt-out checkbox, and you send a marketing email - that is spam by definition, if gmail decides to filter you out, then by all means it was the right thing to do; and if it was a local business, they would be fined for that.
  - rmrfrmrf 13y ago
    Luckily, the customer still has control over what spam means to them. If you're requiring an e-mail login on your site just so you can loophole your way into inundating me with e-mails sent by a machine, then I'm marking it as spam.

anoncow 13y ago

I flag twitter and facebook We-haven't-seen-you-in-a-long-time messages as spam. Because those emails are also about selling a product. But as someone who runs a tiny niche forum, I am tempted to mail users to return. So I am in a dilemma of sorts morally.

rmrfrmrf 13y ago

I have this argument with people I work with all the time because I'm the only one that's allowed to send out e-mail blasts. "WAHH, my 1% OFF sale is soooo important that I want to make sure nobody misses it. Can we send it out on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday? NO??? Do you realize that you're KILLING our business?" No. Everyone hates spam. Go away.