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Wow, a lot of people here are lauding Weebly for their great customer engagement whatever strategy. I don't know how effective these messages are, but working i

by memset 13y ago

Wow, a lot of people here are lauding Weebly for their great customer engagement whatever strategy. I don't know how effective these messages are, but working in e-commerce, I can say that customers don't want to be spammed. The one thing they have correct is that aggressive subject lines are generally better at getting click-throughs than milder ones. "You'd be crazy to miss out on this" works better than "Check out our new product." I used to work for a flash sales website, and whenever I told people about it, they'd uniformly say "Oh yeah, I've signed up for them! Way too many emails, can you make it stop?" I'm sure the folks at Weebly have tested this (or maybe this poor unfortunate soul is part of some silly week-long A/B test to try and improve engagement.) But my personal experience says that Weebly needs to get smarter about how to engage. More effective: Send someone a couple of welcome emails. Wait 4 weeks. Then send them a message. BAM, lots of engagement, because when you receive the email you say "Huh, this must be pretty exciting, I haven't heard from them in a while!" Have you ever signed up for Everlane? Go do it and pay attention to the way they do onboarding and email marketing. They don't spam me, but when they do, I'm like "NEATO LET ME SEE YOUR NEW CASHMERE T-SHIRTS" because it seems like a rare opportunity to see a budding startup release a new product. It's all marketing but done in a way that doesn't suck horribly.

arkitaip 13y ago
The depressing part is reading the comments here on HN and realizing that some people just don't see what the problem is. Ok, fine, forget about the ethical aspects here and understand that when you spam your customers like this you tarnish your image because you're effectively putting yourself in the same category as the people who try to sell fake rolex watches and viagra pills. I suggest that the next time a business, startup or not, tries to "lifecycle email" (yuck) you, don't unsubscribe - spam flag them. If some business people have such warped understanding of reality that they can't see spam when they send it, at least they can get penalized for it.
- memset 13y ago
  Haha, this is a totally fair thing to say. Talking about marketing, one can start to dehumanize people, and that is never good. There are some (many?) legitimate cases where I will sign up for a service and forget about it. (Rackspace's onboarding email says it best: "Did you get a text message? Meeting invite? It's okay, here, finish signing up.") If you sign up for Everlane, you do so because you are legitimately interested in buying new clothes. Fashion changes, and if they can keep me abreast of the latest and greatest, then I am getting value. If I signed up for Weebly because I need to publish a website, but for whatever reason I drop off, maybe their prompting will prompt me to go ahead and finish my site so that I can show it off to my friends. Of course, it's hard to know whether a customer will fall into one of those buckets, or "I just wanted to check out the site, leave me alone!" Maybe it is analogous to dating: flirting with someone is okay if the other person reciprocates, otherwise it is "creepy."
- npsimons 13y ago
  I suggest that the next time a business, startup or not, tries to "lifecycle email" (yuck) you, don't unsubscribe - spam flag them. Much as I smiled a wry grin at this suggestion, I have to say, don't fucking do this. Be an adult: if you signed up for something, take the time to try and unsubscribe first. No way to unsubscribe? Unsubscribe doesn't work? Okay, now you should start flagging as spam. Unsubscribing has the added benefit of being more direct, in a "hey, we spammed this guy with 4 emails in three days, then he suddenly unsubscribed", instead of going "why are we being marked as spam? our lists are completely opt-in!".
  - scott_s 13y ago
    Giving a company my email is not implicit permission to email me whenever they want. If you actually checked the box "yes, please email me," then yes, you gave permission. But if I did no such thing, then it is spam.
    - lucisferre 13y ago
      I may be entirely wrong here, but I think it is. > the recipient has not verifiably granted deliberate, explicit, and still-revocable permission for it to be sent. I'm pretty sure that giving your e-mail is explicit permission and an unsubscribe link makes it still-revocable. That said I completely appreciate that emotionally it feel like spam, and I can't imagine why any business in their right mind would feel this was a good business practice. source: http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/ http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/
      - scott_s 13y ago
        Whether or not we consider that "spam" is a semantic argument. I do, because it litters my inbox and pisses me off. I recognize that people may want to distinguish it from bulk email from entities that you have no prior relationship with, but to me, that's immaterial.
      - PeterisP 13y ago
        No, giving my e-mail address is just that - giving an email address; it does not come with permission to send automated daily emails. For example, I login to facebook with my email address, but I have explicitly withdrawn any permission for facebook to send me any notifications by email in all the opt-out settings. Subscribing to messages should be explicitly opt-in, and in a bunch of countries is legally required to be opt-in. If I miss an opt-out checkbox, and you send a marketing email - that is spam by definition, if gmail decides to filter you out, then by all means it was the right thing to do; and if it was a local business, they would be fined for that.
- anoncow 13y ago
  I flag twitter and facebook We-haven't-seen-you-in-a-long-time messages as spam. Because those emails are also about selling a product. But as someone who runs a tiny niche forum, I am tempted to mail users to return. So I am in a dilemma of sorts morally.
- rmrfrmrf 13y ago
  I have this argument with people I work with all the time because I'm the only one that's allowed to send out e-mail blasts. "WAHH, my 1% OFF sale is soooo important that I want to make sure nobody misses it. Can we send it out on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday? NO??? Do you realize that you're KILLING our business?" No. Everyone hates spam. Go away.
gojomo 13y ago
You forgive Everlane because you like their emails. If many of Weebly's actual signups have a reaction similar to your Everlane reaction, something like "NEATO I'D FORGOTTEN I WANTED TO GET MY WEBSITE UP WITH THAT BENEFIT", then what's the problem?
- memset 13y ago
  I guess I'd ask the question like this: is there no room for taste [1] when it comes to emails? We can all agree that different audiences will find a particular email more or less engaging. The same way we might say "mathematics is beautiful", is there any room for saying "that marketing campaign" or "the way they engaged with their customers" is elegant? [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html
- srumple 13y ago
  It's worth remembering that the Weebly emails were sent more frequently then the Everlane ones. An email every month or so? Ok, not a problem. An email every day for more then a week? Back off. Email volume does matter. You can send too many emails and annoy your users.
ajross 13y ago
The thing is, there is a tension between "customers don't want to be spammed" and "spamming customers produces appreciable and measurable results". For every N disengaged customers you annoy with the unsolicited mail, you re-engage M who simply forgot about you. Tuning that ratio is hard, and sadly poorly suited to advice like "don't send spammy reminders".
- memset 13y ago
  I'd conjecture that "lots of spam" probably increases short-term engagement, but if these people have to be emailed very frequently to use your product, are they really interested in using your product over the long term? Are those the kinds of customers you want to have?
  - processyellow 13y ago
    Yes. At least in this example, (if it succeeded) you'd end up with a website on their service after this. Regardless how hard it was to get you there, you no longer are a customer that has to be emailed frequently to use the product. You are now just a customer.
mootothemax 13y ago
I used to work for a flash sales website, and whenever I told people about it, they'd uniformly say "Oh yeah, I've signed up for them! Way too many emails, can you make it stop?" You recognise that emails from a flash sales website are vastly different than those from a service you're trying out, right? One is about "Hey, buy X and Y today!" and the other "Hey, here's a cool feature in the product you're trying out!" Not all emails are born equal.
nivla 13y ago
HN always seemed a roulette to me. Remember that article where a guy makes his gf signup for Spotify and Spotify tries to match the same credentials to Facebook, then logs in, reactivates her account and adds the app to her FB? Most of the comments were surprisingly supportive of Spotify. And today we have an article on the front page about URLs posted in chats being visited for malware checks.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rhizome 13y ago
I'm not sure they're the best example to use, since Everlane uses popover signup forms on every single page you visit until you create an account. Maybe once you're onboard they get a little less desperate.

by memset 13y ago

arkitaip 13y ago

The depressing part is reading the comments here on HN and realizing that some people just don't see what the problem is. Ok, fine, forget about the ethical aspects here and understand that when you spam your customers like this you tarnish your image because you're effectively putting yourself in the same category as the people who try to sell fake rolex watches and viagra pills. I suggest that the next time a business, startup or not, tries to "lifecycle email" (yuck) you, don't unsubscribe - spam flag them. If some business people have such warped understanding of reality that they can't see spam when they send it, at least they can get penalized for it.

memset 13y ago
Haha, this is a totally fair thing to say. Talking about marketing, one can start to dehumanize people, and that is never good. There are some (many?) legitimate cases where I will sign up for a service and forget about it. (Rackspace's onboarding email says it best: "Did you get a text message? Meeting invite? It's okay, here, finish signing up.") If you sign up for Everlane, you do so because you are legitimately interested in buying new clothes. Fashion changes, and if they can keep me abreast of the latest and greatest, then I am getting value. If I signed up for Weebly because I need to publish a website, but for whatever reason I drop off, maybe their prompting will prompt me to go ahead and finish my site so that I can show it off to my friends. Of course, it's hard to know whether a customer will fall into one of those buckets, or "I just wanted to check out the site, leave me alone!" Maybe it is analogous to dating: flirting with someone is okay if the other person reciprocates, otherwise it is "creepy."
npsimons 13y ago
I suggest that the next time a business, startup or not, tries to "lifecycle email" (yuck) you, don't unsubscribe - spam flag them. Much as I smiled a wry grin at this suggestion, I have to say, don't fucking do this. Be an adult: if you signed up for something, take the time to try and unsubscribe first. No way to unsubscribe? Unsubscribe doesn't work? Okay, now you should start flagging as spam. Unsubscribing has the added benefit of being more direct, in a "hey, we spammed this guy with 4 emails in three days, then he suddenly unsubscribed", instead of going "why are we being marked as spam? our lists are completely opt-in!".
- scott_s 13y ago
  Giving a company my email is not implicit permission to email me whenever they want. If you actually checked the box "yes, please email me," then yes, you gave permission. But if I did no such thing, then it is spam.
  - lucisferre 13y ago
    I may be entirely wrong here, but I think it is. > the recipient has not verifiably granted deliberate, explicit, and still-revocable permission for it to be sent. I'm pretty sure that giving your e-mail is explicit permission and an unsubscribe link makes it still-revocable. That said I completely appreciate that emotionally it feel like spam, and I can't imagine why any business in their right mind would feel this was a good business practice. source: http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/ http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/
    - scott_s 13y ago
      Whether or not we consider that "spam" is a semantic argument. I do, because it litters my inbox and pisses me off. I recognize that people may want to distinguish it from bulk email from entities that you have no prior relationship with, but to me, that's immaterial.
    - PeterisP 13y ago
      No, giving my e-mail address is just that - giving an email address; it does not come with permission to send automated daily emails. For example, I login to facebook with my email address, but I have explicitly withdrawn any permission for facebook to send me any notifications by email in all the opt-out settings. Subscribing to messages should be explicitly opt-in, and in a bunch of countries is legally required to be opt-in. If I miss an opt-out checkbox, and you send a marketing email - that is spam by definition, if gmail decides to filter you out, then by all means it was the right thing to do; and if it was a local business, they would be fined for that.
anoncow 13y ago
I flag twitter and facebook We-haven't-seen-you-in-a-long-time messages as spam. Because those emails are also about selling a product. But as someone who runs a tiny niche forum, I am tempted to mail users to return. So I am in a dilemma of sorts morally.
rmrfrmrf 13y ago
I have this argument with people I work with all the time because I'm the only one that's allowed to send out e-mail blasts. "WAHH, my 1% OFF sale is soooo important that I want to make sure nobody misses it. Can we send it out on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday? NO??? Do you realize that you're KILLING our business?" No. Everyone hates spam. Go away.

gojomo 13y ago

You forgive Everlane because you like their emails. If many of Weebly's actual signups have a reaction similar to your Everlane reaction, something like "NEATO I'D FORGOTTEN I WANTED TO GET MY WEBSITE UP WITH THAT BENEFIT", then what's the problem?

memset 13y ago
I guess I'd ask the question like this: is there no room for taste [1] when it comes to emails? We can all agree that different audiences will find a particular email more or less engaging. The same way we might say "mathematics is beautiful", is there any room for saying "that marketing campaign" or "the way they engaged with their customers" is elegant? [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html
srumple 13y ago
It's worth remembering that the Weebly emails were sent more frequently then the Everlane ones. An email every month or so? Ok, not a problem. An email every day for more then a week? Back off. Email volume does matter. You can send too many emails and annoy your users.

ajross 13y ago

The thing is, there is a tension between "customers don't want to be spammed" and "spamming customers produces appreciable and measurable results". For every N disengaged customers you annoy with the unsolicited mail, you re-engage M who simply forgot about you. Tuning that ratio is hard, and sadly poorly suited to advice like "don't send spammy reminders".

memset 13y ago
I'd conjecture that "lots of spam" probably increases short-term engagement, but if these people have to be emailed very frequently to use your product, are they really interested in using your product over the long term? Are those the kinds of customers you want to have?
- processyellow 13y ago
  Yes. At least in this example, (if it succeeded) you'd end up with a website on their service after this. Regardless how hard it was to get you there, you no longer are a customer that has to be emailed frequently to use the product. You are now just a customer.

mootothemax 13y ago

I used to work for a flash sales website, and whenever I told people about it, they'd uniformly say "Oh yeah, I've signed up for them! Way too many emails, can you make it stop?" You recognise that emails from a flash sales website are vastly different than those from a service you're trying out, right? One is about "Hey, buy X and Y today!" and the other "Hey, here's a cool feature in the product you're trying out!" Not all emails are born equal.

nivla 13y ago

HN always seemed a roulette to me. Remember that article where a guy makes his gf signup for Spotify and Spotify tries to match the same credentials to Facebook, then logs in, reactivates her account and adds the app to her FB? Most of the comments were surprisingly supportive of Spotify. And today we have an article on the front page about URLs posted in chats being visited for malware checks.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

rhizome 13y ago

I'm not sure they're the best example to use, since Everlane uses popover signup forms on every single page you visit until you create an account. Maybe once you're onboard they get a little less desperate.